1970 S Large Date Penny with Rotated Die NOT ATTRIBUTED?!?!?!? 1 1

[WayneT9639]

I am disappointed with my first coin grading experience but I WILL continue to hunt coins and get the best finds graded. I recently sent this 1970 S Large Date penny in to NGC for attribution. I wasn't as concerned with the grade as I am with the error attribution. I even included a note explaining my find and it's super obvious if you look at the images below. I have no idea why such an obvious error would not be attributed by one of the biggest grading companies in the world. Regardless, I am still on a mission to make 7 figures off coins, errors and varieties!

[Fenntucky Mike]

Did you request that the coin be examined for an error and pay the $18 fee? If you did then I have to assume that NGC felt the rotation was not significant enough to be labeled as an error. I tend to agree with that assessment but it's close. 

From the NGC website "NGC will recognize rotated die mint errors only if there is at least 15 degrees of rotation."

[WayneT9639]

On 6/2/2023 at 2:08 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Did you request that the coin be examined for an error and pay the $18 fee? If you did then I have to assume that NGC felt the rotation was not significant enough to be labeled as an error. I tend to agree with that assessment but it's close. 

From the NGC website "NGC will recognize rotated die mint errors only if there is at least 15 degrees of rotation."

This would be WAY MORE than the 15 degrees clockwise and certainly about 15 degrees anti-clockwise. The thing is rotated to the 11 o'Clock position. Idk man...

[JKK]

On 6/2/2023 at 1:55 PM, WayneT9639 said:

Regardless, I am still on a mission to make 7 figures off coins, errors and varieties!

I'd be interested in reading that business plan.

[WayneT9639]

Can we overlay these images for reference? because it looks darn close to me. I hate to be a grumpy old man  but I'd like to see these images overlayed for reference.
 

[WayneT9639]

On 6/2/2023 at 2:26 PM, JKK said:

I'd be interested in reading that business plan.

the plan is simple,
Step 1. Hunt
Step 2. Sell
lol

[WayneT9639]

On 6/2/2023 at 2:08 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Did you request that the coin be examined for an error and pay the $18 fee? If you did then I have to assume that NGC felt the rotation was not significant enough to be labeled as an error. I tend to agree with that assessment but it's close. 

From the NGC website "NGC will recognize rotated die mint errors only if there is at least 15 degrees of rotation."

I paid for both error AND variety attributions.

[JKK]

On 6/2/2023 at 2:32 PM, WayneT9639 said:

the plan is simple,
Step 1. Hunt
Step 2. Sell

Okay. I'm curious how you concluded that this is feasible.

[Sandon]

  

On 6/2/2023 at 4:55 PM, WayneT9639 said:

I am still on a mission to make 7 figures off coins, errors and varieties!

    If you are serious about this--or even just making a decent living as a professional numismatist--your best bet would probably be to seek employment with a major or at least established numismatic dealership or auction house, where you can learn both about coins and the business of buying and selling them.

   Have you researched what Lincoln cents with this relatively minor degree of rotation sell for in the numismatic marketplace, or for that matter examples with 90 degree right angle or 180 degree "medal turn" rotations? It is my impression that few collectors are interested in or willing to pay much for any coins with rotated dies. They are usually "cherrypicked" at regular prices, with the seller being aware of the rotation, and collected only as novelties.  I doubt that you could have sold this coin for a price sufficient to recover your grading, attribution and related fees and shipping costs, even if NGC had attributed the rotation.

   As I and others have frequently explained on this forum, it is extremely rare for anyone to find significant mint errors, die varieties or other valuable coins in circulation or in rolls or accumulations of common coins.  You would likely have a better chance of making "7 figures" playing the lotteries!

[powermad5000]

I took a picture of the reverse of your slab with my phone and used the editing software to rotate the reverse. It came up as 16 degrees. HOWEVER!!!!!, I am taking a picture of a screen of a picture of a slab. To be accurate I would need the coin in hand. That said, I would say it is close to being 15 degrees.

The thing is, the coin, albeit in good condition, is not even worth the slab it is sitting in. At the grade it is, in the price guide it is listed at $12.50 and we all know you typically don't get the actual price guide figure when selling a coin. Submitting this for a regrade (which risks them still not attributing it as a mint error), would be throwing good money at naught.

How much did you think the coin would sell for if it were attributed as a mint error for rotated dies? As someone who has more than a handful of mint errors, I can tell you the coin if attributed in the holder would sell at auction for around $20-$30. Lincoln cents have tons of errors from 1909 to date. Everything from broadstrikes, rotated dies, capped dies, off center strikes, combination errors, brockages....some of the same collecting rules apply here. Now, if you had a 1909 S VDB with a rotated die, you could get insane amounts of money for that one cent. At a mintage number of 693,192,814 cents made as 1970 S, with rotated die not being some "fantastic" error, there will be little demand for such a specimen.

Not to be mean but to be realistic, for your 7 figure plan, if you are chasing after cents like this, you will never get there. You would need to get into coins of demand, those of scarcity and those of extremely high grade. Common Lincoln Memorial Cents are not going to get you there. I have roughly 460 slabs and I am not at 7 figures. I have about half of all the Morgans in grades from 62 to 66+ with many CC's and many Top 100 and Hitlist and Hotlist VAM's, I have uncirculated Trade Dollars, several large cents of XF and up grades, Two Cent pieces uncirculated, Flying Eagle cents in AU, Liberty Head Nickels in MS, Barber Quarters in MS, Walkers in MS, Mercury Dimes about a quarter of the series in MS 65-MS 66 FB....I have ALOT! And I am not at 7 figures. And I have been at this for 45+ years. I applaud your goal and I do hope that one day you can achieve it. I just want to say most of us who collect (and especially now those who submit as well), spend more than they make off of coins. And we will probably die without selling them, so I would hope you have someone you can pass the collection along to who will keep it growing. Even if you don't hit 7 figures, maybe the person you pass your coins to can.

[WayneT9639]

On 6/2/2023 at 5:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

I took a picture of the reverse of your slab with my phone and used the editing software to rotate the reverse. It came up as 16 degrees. HOWEVER!!!!!, I am taking a picture of a screen of a picture of a slab. To be accurate I would need the coin in hand. That said, I would say it is close to being 15 degrees.

The thing is, the coin, albeit in good condition, is not even worth the slab it is sitting in. At the grade it is, in the price guide it is listed at $12.50 and we all know you typically don't get the actual price guide figure when selling a coin. Submitting this for a regrade (which risks them still not attributing it as a mint error), would be throwing good money at naught.

How much did you think the coin would sell for if it were attributed as a mint error for rotated dies? As someone who has more than a handful of mint errors, I can tell you the coin if attributed in the holder would sell at auction for around $20-$30. Lincoln cents have tons of errors from 1909 to date. Everything from broadstrikes, rotated dies, capped dies, off center strikes, combination errors, brockages....some of the same collecting rules apply here. Now, if you had a 1909 S VDB with a rotated die, you could get insane amounts of money for that one cent. At a mintage number of 693,192,814 cents made as 1970 S, with rotated die not being some "fantastic" error, there will be little demand for such a specimen.

Not to be mean but to be realistic, for your 7 figure plan, if you are chasing after cents like this, you will never get there. You would need to get into coins of demand, those of scarcity and those of extremely high grade. Common Lincoln Memorial Cents are not going to get you there. I have roughly 460 slabs and I am not at 7 figures. I have about half of all the Morgans in grades from 62 to 66+ with many CC's and many Top 100 and Hitlist and Hotlist VAM's, I have uncirculated Trade Dollars, several large cents of XF and up grades, Two Cent pieces uncirculated, Flying Eagle cents in AU, Liberty Head Nickels in MS, Barber Quarters in MS, Walkers in MS, Mercury Dimes about a quarter of the series in MS 65-MS 66 FB....I have ALOT! And I am not at 7 figures. And I have been at this for 45+ years. I applaud your goal and I do hope that one day you can achieve it. I just want to say most of us who collect (and especially now those who submit as well), spend more than they make off of coins. And we will probably die without selling them, so I would hope you have someone you can pass the collection along to who will keep it growing. Even if you don't hit 7 figures, maybe the person you pass your coins to can.

I appreciate you sharing this info! I know I have a VERY LONG way to go. I am building this collection of slabbed coins to leave as inheritance for my unborn grandkids. Gold, silver, copper and nickel collections.

[powermad5000]

That is awesome @WayneT9639!!!!!

I am highly unsure of the fate of my collection. I literally have no one to leave it to that wouldn't immediately sell off the whole thing for way less than they could get for it, take all the money and blow it all on something stupid, and then there would eventually be nothing. I hope your plan works out!

[EagleRJO]

My understanding is that the mint tolerance for die rotation is 5 to 7 degrees (e.g. Coin World Almanac, 8th Edition, Pg 370, et. al.), but that any rotation less than about 15 degrees has no added value.  I have also heard in another thread on this board that 17 degrees was the reported mint tolerance, but that seems a bit excessive and was not substantiated.

It looks like there is a 19 degree rotation of the reverse.  See the attached rotated 19 degrees.  Even though that exceeds the 15 degree added value cutoff it is still a minor die rotation in my mind.

Edited June 3, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Jason Abshier]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:17 PM, WayneT9639 said:

I appreciate you sharing this info! I know I have a VERY LONG way to go. I am building this collection of slabbed coins to leave as inheritance for my unborn grandkids. Gold, silver, copper and nickel collections.

With my collection I have both Raw ungraded coins as well as a tons of slabbed coins … I ain’t no high roller in 7 figure coins collection , I have US coins raw and Slabbed I also collect German coins Raw and slabbed as well … My kids show no interest in my collection , the future is uncertain if next generations are interested in the hobby of collectibles heck I rarely ever see a teenager interested in 1960’ or 1970 classic muscle cars anymore… Us coin collectors/dealers are keeping the hobby  alive best we can  good news is there’s still kids interested in coin collecting maybe not in the numbers like we were exposed in 70’s or 80’s and 90’s pretty much early 2000’s after that coin collecting started waning a little ….I don’t see as many kids at coins shows I did in 80’s or 90’s … kids are interested into other stuff not so fascinated into history or collectibles that’s just my opinion .
 

I noticed one trend that seems to never go out of style regardless of generation is SPORTS ! basketball and baseball as football , hockey seems to always have fans of all ages ! Collecting jerseys , helmets , signed balls and so on might still find strong collectibles and buyers in future of that hobby 
 

So when I retire I have some thinking to do to probably dump my collection at auction house to sell off give my kids the money or invest it into property or stocks or something for my kids … unless my kids want my collection ? So be it 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[J P M]

Sorry you did not get what you were looking for Wayne. Myself and many others here have been trying to help advise you on your coins. To be honest after 60 + years I still roll hunt and always will. I find the occasional oddity but I have never fount that 7 figure coin and I am 99 and 44/100 % sure I never will. I say if you enjoy hunting like I do great but do not expect to find that 43 copper right way. I have been looking since 1963 and that was only twenty years later.

[powermad5000]

On 6/4/2023 at 6:25 AM, Jason Abshier said:

 good news is there’s still kids interested in coin collecting

I pass a coin shop in downtown Chicago on my way every year to my annual physical so I always stop in. This year, there was a Dad and two daughters. The girls had to be about 7 and 9. The Dad knew nothing about coins and admitted it. The two girls however were asking about specific coins and specific grades. They were interested in late 30's Walkers and Washingtons. It was heartwarming to see and hear and reminded me of myself at that age taking my newspaper route money on my bike right to the coin shop in town and buying coins with it. I had to comment to the Dad that I started at their age as well and that they are into a good hobby. [And then I proceeded to buy myself an upgrade Morgan....LOL!]

There is still hope @Jason Abshier. It is unclear exactly when collecting began but there are collections documented from the late 1800's that have been sold. And there is interest in the hobby to this day.

[VKurtB]

On 6/2/2023 at 4:44 PM, JKK said:

Okay. I'm curious how you concluded that this is feasible.

It’s not. The OP is a foole.

[powermad5000]

@WayneT9639, I just thought of something in the case of this coin. You stated you submitted under both Mint Error AND VarietyPlus. I was thinking about this, and I wonder if that possibly caused some confusion over at NGC (I personally have never submitted a coin with both of those boxes checked) for the graders. I am wondering if you had submitted this only as a Mint Error if it would have been attributed. There is no fee for the 1970 S either small date or large date attribution which means when NGC gets one, they will automatically assign the proper variety (small or large date). I have submitted when there is no fee without checking that box and the label has come back correct.

Just a thought.