Mint Records and Documentation 1 1

[tj96]

When working dies are intentionally altered or modified, are records and documents kept of that action?...  Who modified the die? Why it was modified? When it was modified?..etc..

[Moxie15]

unless there is a law that says they must I would doubt they would

[tj96]

They're government employees.  I would think any action from the norm would or should be documented.  Where's Roger?

[RWB]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:09 AM, tj96 said:

When working dies are intentionally altered or modified, are records and documents kept of that action?...  Who modified the die? Why it was modified? When it was modified?..etc..

For at least the last 150 years, all alterations to dies or hubs were documented in small pocket notebooks, and later in paper and digital files. These are considered proprietary and are not publicly available for modern materials. Comments and test production information also can appear in internal correspondence, such as multiple changes and tests of the Jefferson nickel in 1938. A few bits and pieces of information survive in Mint archives. Here's a sample for Washington quarters, 1936-37.

[tj96]

Thanks Roger!  So modern materials are considered proprietary and not publicly available.  Would I have any luck if I submitted a FOIA request?

[RWB]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:49 PM, tj96 said:

Thanks Roger!  So modern materials are considered proprietary and not publicly available.  Would I have any luck if I submitted a FOIA request?

Probably not, but there's no penalty for asking. There is a little material from the 1970s in NARA at College Park, but most of it consists of lists, and not the real details I suspect you are hoping for. If there's something specific, I can search my database for you.

[tj96]

Something called the Elongated Ray, 2007-P Washington $

You're the to-go guy on this stuff Roger. If you can't make this happen, it's probably not going to happen.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by tj96

[RWB]

I looked for that for another collector about a year ago, but found nothing. the year 2007 is too recent for any mint documents to be in NARA, also. Sorry.

[tj96]

Thanks for the follow-up and feedback!..  Much appreciated! 

Do me a favor.  During your numismatic travels, could you keep this thread in the back of your mind?

Thanks!  👍🏻

[RWB]

Sure. I'll even upgrade it from a thread to a string so it doesn't get lost in the mental cobwebs. 

[tj96]

LoL!!  😂 👍🏻  👍🏻

[tj96]

Any updates Rodger?  You know anyone that has a key to the Archives?   I'll meet you up in College Park, we could break in together! 

[RWB]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:05 AM, tj96 said:

Any updates Rodger?  You know anyone that has a key to the Archives?   I'll meet you up in College Park, we could break in together! 

Nope. There has been nothing new added to the Mint archives. When that happens, I'll check, but the chances of finding anything useful to you and very slim.

[tj96]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:15 PM, RWB said:

Nope. There has been nothing new added to the Mint archives. When that happens, I'll check, but the chances of finding anything useful to you and very slim.

Okay, thanks Rodger.  Getting information on this is like pulling teeth!   I should submit another FOIA request!  

[tj96]

Roger-

On average, how many years would it normally take before records, logs, notes or any mint production activity reports hit the archives?

[RWB]

My best guess is 20 years, plus another 4 years at a secure NARA facility where materials are reviewed and cataloged before being sent to the public outlets. I understand from  NARA conversations that electronic records are a major pain both in volume and cataloging. There is a set of rules, but I have never bothered to check the details. A lot of the modern material I've personally seen has been heavily scrubbed before it ever leaves for NARA. Good examples are the various commemoratives where there is a lot of back and forth interaction between Mint staff, "stakeholders," artists, CCAC, CFA, and other. Much is verbal or from summaries, so we don't get the kind of "inside" material that we have from some 19th and 20th century coinage.

Did you file a FOIA request?

Edited October 12, 2023 by RWB

[tj96]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:46 PM, RWB said:

My best guess is 20 years, plus another 4 years at a secure NARA facility where materials are reviewed and cataloged before being sent to the public outlets. I understand from  NARA conversations that electronic records are a major pain both in volume and cataloging. There is a set of rules, but I have never bothered to check the details. A lot of the modern material I've personally seen has been heavily scrubbed before it ever leaves for NARA. Good examples are the various commemoratives where there is a lot of back and forth interaction between Mint staff, "stakeholders," artists, CCAC, CFA, and other. Much is verbal or from summaries, so we don't get the kind of "inside" material that we have from some 19th and 20th century coinage.

Did you file a FOIA request?

Roger-

Yep, understood.  I get it. Yes, scrubbed or the documents are redacted!  I bet a lot of the information I'm looking for is in e-mail exchanges between the engravers and management...  Oh well.

20 years?!?!?   I'll be dead by then!!

Yes, I submitted a FOIA request almost two years ago.  It came back with negative results. 

Thanks again for the feedback

[RWB]

Sorry about the FOIA. The Mint Bureau does not have capabilities to store much beyond routine in-use material. Just like the old paper-based Mint, they don;t want any embarrassing arguments or comments to get out ... at least not until those involved are retired or dead.

[tj96]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:06 PM, RWB said:

Sorry about the FOIA. The Mint Bureau does not have capabilities to store much beyond routine in-use material. Just like the old paper-based Mint, they don;t want any embarrassing arguments or comments to get out ... at least not until those involved are retired or dead.

If journalists can submit FOIA requests and get documents, e-mails, texts messages and bank records on the Biden family for influence Peddling, corruption, extortion, money laundering and suspicious activity report (SAR's) to line their pockets from foreign advisory governments, why can't I get records from the mint?   

[RWB]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:38 PM, tj96 said:

If journalists can submit FOIA requests and get documents, e-mails, texts messages and bank records on the Biden family for influence Peddling, corruption, extortion, money laundering and suspicious activity report (SAR's) to line their pockets from foreign advisory governments, why can't I get records from the mint?   

First, the FBI & Justice Department are doing the investigations you mention. They have open access at all levels. What they have so far, according to the Special Counsel, was provided voluntarily or by blanket agreement by Pres. Biden, so no subpoenas and FOIA requests were necessary.

Journalists have the training and experience to understand how to present a FOIA request, and they have support & research people who know the rules. When CNN or BBC or PBS makes a FOIA request, they have a lot of experienced people behind the submission. Journalists also have a special place in a democracy as created by the Constitution.

A FOIA (Freedom of Information Request) is an administrative search for materials relating to a specific subject by an Agency or Bureau. The Federal Agency to whom the request was made is required under law to provide free or at-cost copies of all materials covered by the FOIA request. If the Agency has anything, they have to provide it subject to certain exceptions such as national security. But, if the Agency is remiss, or fails to deliver something that the requestor can reasonably demonstrate is held by the Agency, an appeal can be made. There's also a terminology problem. Every business and profession has it's unique jargon, about which we ordinary folks are clueless. For example, in numismatics we might mention a "ray extending too far into the field." But to a diesinker or sculptor engraver, the request is ambiguous in part because a dies does not have a "field" -- it has a "table;" and the other words are not specific for the specialist practitioner to know what is wanted. It would be the same for medicine, physics, etc.

The above paragraph is in limited conflict with National Archives and Records Administration rules which require retention of Agency materials, but also require materials to be delivered to NARA. (I don't know all the timelines and retention rules....) Once things get to NARA control, everything is different because NARA is charged with preservation and organization leading to public access - but does not generate any Agency's work products.

[RWB]

PS: There are tight rules for when something can be discarded by a Federal Agency. Every contact from a citizen or anyone else is maintained. The volume is immense. Even in the old stuff I look at, there are letters from thousands or people asking trivial questions. Occasionally, I come across letters from well known collectors and dealers, include some still living.

[tj96]

Okay, thanks Roger.