Guessing Game, With a Difference 1 1

[VKurtB]

I got to talk at length with Cliff Mishler who has a VERY extensive collection, across MANY genres. Of course his exonumia is raw, and he does have an extensive collection of “sample slabs”. But guess, either by raw number or by percentage, how many of his U.S. high grade coins are slabbed. Hint: the number is low, but NOT zero. And the sample slabs don’t count. I’m going to get groceries. If there are a few guesses, I’ll give the answer then. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

is it bigger than a breadbox?....

[rrantique]

Less than 10

[VKurtB]

The answer is ONE.  Cliff Mishler owns exactly ONE slabbed coin. Think about that. Now, talk to me about how important Registry Sets are. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[JT2]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:07 PM, VKurtB said:

important Registry Sets are

Not important to me............

[CIII]

Not the least bit important to me but I understand why it is to so many people.

[zadok]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:07 PM, VKurtB said:

The answer is ONE.  Cliff Mishler owns exactly ONE slabbed coin. Think about that. Now, talk to me about how important Registry Sets are. 

...not really important as far as true collecting of coins go, just another avenue for collectors to pursue, some like the challenges some pay it no mind....

[VKurtB]

The more one deals “face to face”, the less one needs slabs. Cliff is the ULTIMATE face to face guy. He’s ALWAYS on the road, it seems. 

[World Colonial]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:07 PM, VKurtB said:

The answer is ONE.  Cliff Mishler owns exactly ONE slabbed coin. Think about that. Now, talk to me about how important Registry Sets are. 

To provide a little more context, what's the scale of his collection?

Given who he is and how long he's been associated with coin collecting, I'm assuming it covers a wide range of US series and maybe world coinage too.

[RWB]

Who said "register sets are important?" Was it, 1) Alfred E. Newman; 2) Alfred the Great; 3) Dan Quail; 4) breaking news on Fox "Nuz"; or 5) Elmer Fudd ?

[Must agree with Kurt - not important at all except to the owners as some sort of detached competition.]

[VKurtB]

On 3/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, World Colonial said:

To provide a little more context, what's the scale of his collection?

Given who he is and how long he's been associated with coin collecting, I'm assuming it covers a wide range of US series and maybe world coinage too.

It does indeed. His collection is probably in five figures of individual coins. He also bemoans ridiculous price deltas for one point grade differences that aren’t even repeatable. He doesn’t think much of “the game” of today’s collecting. 

[J P M]

On 3/7/2023 at 9:00 PM, RWB said:

Must agree with Kurt - not important at all except to the owners as some sort of detached competition.

I also believe there must be many thousands of collectors that have a small amount of slabbed coins. I have many coins that I will never have graded. I never even knew there was a registry until I joined NGC. I think it is a great tool for keeping track of one's coins . I will never win a award but it is fun, I like the way it is set up together with the Collectors Society also . Now days I buy all my coins all ready graded so my wife and kids have some way of knowing what they may be worth. I also shop coin stores and most of the prices of coins in 2x2''s on the shelves I can pick up online in a NGS or PCGS holder for the same price or less if I shop around. I do love to haggle over a coin and I know they need to make a buck to pay the bills.  I just think now that TPG coins have been around for 40 years it is just easier to find what you want all ready in a slab. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:02 AM, J P M said:

Now days I buy all my coins all ready graded so my wife and kids have some way of knowing what they may be worth. I also shop coin stores and most of the prices of coins in 2x2''s on the shelves I can pick up online in a NGS or PCGS holder for the same price or less if I shop around. 

This.  Exactly this is why I buy graded coins.  When I die, my family can scan the coin and get an estimated retail, and they will have the Greysheet to understand wholesale.  The grading and identification of the coin/variety is already done for them.  I think if one is leaving coins behind, it helps to make the collection as transparent as possible.

[Simple Collector]

I use the registry to connect with other collectors who have similar interests and collect the same coins that I do. I have had the pleasure of meeting several collectors because of the registry on both sides of the street. I have owned many coins that currently dwell in other registry sets for one reason or another. I have also acquired coins from fellow collectors that fit into my sets as well. 

Additional advantages of the registry include a nicely designed database that allows me to keep my coins organized and tracked. I can also enjoy my collection and those of others from the comfort and privacy of my home visually without taking them from a secure location.

I also think that going back to the underlying premise of the registry set which is the whole idea of TPG slabbed coins. In our markets today I am very happy to have the option of certifying services available for many reasons including authentication, grading and packaging to name just a few. In addition, certified coins are valued higher, sell easier at higher prices and there is a reasonable confidence that the coins are not counterfeit.

Bottom line to me would be: if you do not like the registry then why not go to other coin sites that do no have a registry rather than hang out here on a registry site developed by a third party grader.

 

 

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:38 AM, Simple Collector said:

I use the registry to connect with other collectors who have similar interests and collect the same coins that I do. I have had the pleasure of meeting several collectors because of the registry on both sides of the street. I have owned many coins that currently dwell in other registry sets for one reason or another. I have also acquired coins from fellow collectors that fit into my sets as well. 

Additional advantages of the registry include a nicely designed database that allows me to keep my coins organized and tracked. I can also enjoy my collection and those of others from the comfort and privacy of my home visually without taking them from a secure location.

I also think that going back to the underlying premise of the registry set which is the whole idea of TPG slabbed coins. In our markets today I am very happy to have the option of certifying services available for many reasons including authentication, grading and packaging to name just a few. In addition, certified coins are valued higher, sell easier at higher prices and there is a reasonable confidence that the coins are not counterfeit.

Bottom line to me would be: if you do not like the registry then why not go to other coin sites that do no have a registry rather than hang out here on a registry site developed by a third party grader.

 

 

Or even why bother with ANYTHING online, right? I mean, heck, Cliff Mishler sure doesn’t “do” online, right? Know what I use to “connect” with collectors of similar interests? Planes, trains, and automobiles. I even got to rap face to face with Administrator Lisa on this site last week. No avatar. The living breathing Lisa. 
 

By the way, I also use NGC’s database, but not the registry. No registry is required to use the database. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by VKurtB

[Simple Collector]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:37 PM, VKurtB said:

Or even why bother with ANYTHING online, right? I mean, heck, Cliff Mishler sure doesn’t “do” online, right? Know what I use to “connect” with collectors of similar interests? Planes, trains, and automobiles. I even got to rap face to face with Administrator Lisa on this site last week. No avatar. The living breathing Lisa. 
 

By the way, I also use NGC’s database, but not the registry. No registry is required to use the database. 

I don't understand your point. I have traveled as well and mentioned that I have met collectors with similar interests. And perhaps some may not have the financial means to travel as you have.

I also know how and do use the database often but can look at a specific set within the registry and see all the sets listed in one place. 

How do you know Cliff does not "do" online? You don't "do" the registry thing, but you do "do" online. 

 

[World Colonial]

On 3/8/2023 at 12:38 PM, Simple Collector said:

In our markets today I am very happy to have the option of certifying services available for many reasons including authentication, grading and packaging to name just a few. In addition, certified coins are valued higher, sell easier at higher prices and there is a reasonable confidence that the coins are not counterfeit.

Authentication isn't much of an issue for most coins, and to the extent it's a bigger issue now, it's substantially due to the inflated price level associated with TPG.  I know counterfeiting is more widespread and modern technology makes it easier, but counterfeiters don't randomly (mass) counterfeit anything.  That's why US coins are more heavily counterfeited than others.

The number on the label is marketing which does make the coins more liquid, but the inflated price level once again makes this a circular problem.

Up to 2010, I'd sell coins intermittently on eBay, both graded and not.  From what I can see, liquidity has collapsed in that venue, and it used to be the best option for most collectors.  This is a secondary reason I won't spend any "noticeable" money on "side collections" or random coin purchases where I might have in the past.

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:16 PM, Simple Collector said:

I don't understand your point. I have traveled as well and mentioned that I have met collectors with similar interests. And perhaps some may not have the financial means to travel as you have.

I also know how and do use the database often but can look at a specific set within the registry and see all the sets listed in one place. 

How do you know Cliff does not "do" online? You don't "do" the registry thing, but you do "do" online. 

 

I talked with Cliff for over an hour last week. Face to face. At the Message Desk at the Phoenix ANA show. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:19 PM, World Colonial said:

to the extent it's a bigger issue now, it's substantially due to the inflated price level associated with TPG.

Wow! So true and soooo well put. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:16 PM, Simple Collector said:

I don't understand your point. I have traveled as well and mentioned that I have met collectors with similar interests. And perhaps some may not have the financial means to travel as you have.

I also know how and do use the database often but can look at a specific set within the registry and see all the sets listed in one place. 

How do you know Cliff does not "do" online? You don't "do" the registry thing, but you do "do" online. 

 

I’m working on my own database, using Ubuntu, the Linux variant. When it’s done, it’ll reside on my server and I’ll access it from my phone, running a different Linux variant. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I totally agree that the best relationships are built face-to-face, however, to ignore the cost/time effectiveness of forging relationships online is short sighted IMO.  I think collectors today should use every avenue possible to find like-minded collectors/dealers and material that fits his/her collecting goals.  If I had to depend on face-to-face sales and in-person relationships, I would not have access to a fraction of the coins I do by using a multi-outlet approach.

I do find it ironic that we are knocking online presence, graded coins and the registry on an online TPG registry forum... but, we can put a pin in that for now. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:28 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I totally agree that the best relationships are built face-to-face, however, to ignore the cost/time effectiveness of forging relationships online is short sighted IMO.  I think collectors today should use every avenue possible to find like-minded collectors/dealers and material that fits his/her collecting goals.  If I had to depend on face-to-face sales and in-person relationships, I would not have access to a fraction of the coins I do by using a multi-outlet approach.

I do find it ironic that we are knocking online presence, graded coins and the registry on an online TPG registry forum... but, we can put a pin in that for now. 

Low quality alternatives are both - low quality AND alternatives. Just because one uses an alternative does not remove its lack of quality, nor one’s awareness of that fact. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by VKurtB

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I do not find these alternatives to be low quality.  My relationships (and my material) are quality.  I know and can contact some of the greatest half cent specialists in the world.  I have been personally invited to some of their private groups on FaceBook.  I was invited by them because of a thread I created ATS on half cent attribution, and they liked what I was doing.  They never met me, nor I them... But these people are highly regarded in the area I collect.  They are the same quality person online, as am I - we just meet differently.  100% online/telephone.

Now - I DO want to meet them in person at a show or EAC meeting (that would be a treat)... however, we get a lot done using alternative methods of communication.  Everyone has been extremely gracious and generous with their time.  I really appreciate all of the solid contacts I have made that have helped me along the way.

Edited March 9, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Sandon]

    Many older collectors like Mr. Mishler and, to some extent, me are resistant to having their coins third-party graded and conducting their coin collecting activities online.  As we leave the scene and our collections return to the marketplace, the younger collectors and dealers tend to have the coins third-party graded.  The increasing values for classic U.S. coins and the influx of Chinese and other counterfeits have also contributed to the increased use of third-party grading. For the same reasons, it's getting harder and harder to find decent uncertified coins of any real value.

  As most of the coins I've bought in recent years are certified and as I wanted to be able to show at least photos of the coins to members of my coin club and others for educational purposes, I decided early in 2020 to put my NGC and PCGS certified coins on the NGC Registry. I've also had a few dozen of my better uncertified coins NGC certified to add them to the registry. I never expected to win any registry competition, but I have received "Best in Category" certificates for some more obscure sets, such as 1811 and 1815 Mint Sets and New Orleans Type Set.  If you want to see these sets, see Sandon's Competitive Sets | NGC (ngccoin.com). 

   I still have a number of better coins in albums and other uncertified holders and will continue to do so.  I hate empty holes in albums and lucite boards where I have an example of the coin. Certified holders also consume an enormous amount of space and weight compared to other storage options.  My 450 or so certified coins now largely reside in my largest safe deposit box, a 10 by 10 box that's so heavy that I need a hand truck to move it from the vault!  I'm able to lift other safe deposit boxes that contain many more coins. (I'm amazed that no one else on these forums has noted this problem with certified holders.) I think that some of the fads spawned by third-party grading, such as the grading of modern collectors' issues, the paying of absurd prices for abundantly common coins with the highest numerical grades, the collection of special holder labels, and "low-ball sets", are just plain silly!

   I purchase coins at internet only auctions but will always prefer opportunities for in-person examination. I've had both pleasant and unpleasant surprises seeing the actual coin I've bought for the first time after viewing it only in photographs.  I also enjoy attending coin shows and coin club meetings to view a variety of coins and to speak in person with other collectors and dealers. However, my participation in these forums has enabled me to communicate with other collectors whom I'll probably never meet. 

   In conclusion, both traditional and newer methods of acquiring, storing and studying coins and interacting with other collectors have their places and can co-exist. 

   

Edited March 8, 2023 by Sandon

[World Colonial]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:07 PM, Sandon said:

 The increasing values for classic U.S. coins and the influx of Chinese and other counterfeits have also contributed to the increased use of third-party grading. For the same reason, it's getting harder and harder to find decent uncertified coins of any real value.

For US coins but not otherwise.  Most the coins in my primary collection are graded and most I bought graded, but I have a list I'd be interested in buying given the opportunity and the vast majority in it are not graded.  These are from the few somewhat prominent collections which sold in 1988, 1991, and 1996.

I also don't consider the risk of fakes that high with what I collect.  It's not that I am so good at detecting it, it's that counterfeiters have a much higher incentive to fake something, practically anything else.

The most profitable counterfeiting is either a relatively low number of valuable coins (like the HR Saint) or a large number of very common but still meaningfully valued coins, like US key dates, Morgan dollars, Spanish cobs, Sovereigns, and pillar dollars.  It's not very profitable to fake a very small number of moderate to low priced coins, my series.  With many of these coins, even one could be suspicious.

[zadok]

...as with so many other topics on this forum...there is no right or wrong answer on certified coins or participating in registry sets...everyone makes their own choices based on their own preferences, having certified coins or having raw coins there is no difference from the numismatic perspective, the owner is still a collector, just in different avenues of the hobby n can do both at the same time...coin certification has many varied reasons as many members here have expressed, all valid for each individual based on their needs...ditto for registry sets, either it fits what u like doing or it doesnt...no right or wrong involved....if for no other reason this discussion accomplished one thing...it created a discussion on some aspects of our hobby, isnt that why we r here?...we r not here to try to change other persons choices, just talk about them n maybe evaluate the merits of each others comments...its a win-win for all n everyone is correct, no losers....

[numisport]

Of course you can buy slabbed coins and crack them out. Makes sense doesn't it. Without slabs Mr. Mishlers' proofs are certainly showing environmental damage though still appealing I'm sure. I take a slab for what it was intended to be. That would be an anti tampering device first then a protective device next and on down the list of its benefits you can go. Then go ahead if you want to handle your coins crack them out, TPGs would love to regrade them when the next generation gets hold of them. 

 

[Coinbuf]

On 3/8/2023 at 2:39 PM, zadok said:

we r not here to try to change other persons choices, just talk about them n maybe evaluate the merits of each others comments...its a win-win for all n everyone is correct, no losers....

In all honesty while that is why many of us are here; there are one or two here that do in fact want to change what and how others collect because those one or two individuals think they know it all and the only "right" way is their way, the premise of this thread pretty much demonstrates that.

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:39 PM, numisport said:

Of course you can buy slabbed coins and crack them out. Makes sense doesn't it. Without slabs Mr. Mishlers' proofs are certainly showing environmental damage though still appealing I'm sure. I take a slab for what it was intended to be. That would be an anti tampering device first then a protective device next and on down the list of its benefits you can go. Then go ahead if you want to handle your coins crack them out, TPGs would love to regrade them when the next generation gets hold of them. 

 

SLABS ARE NOT PROTECTIVE, PERIOD! Let’s stop that pernicious myth (lie)  right here and right now!

Edited March 8, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 3/8/2023 at 4:35 PM, VKurtB said:

SLABS ARE NOT PROTECTIVE, PERIOD! Let’s stop that pernicious myth (lie)  right here and right now!

As for making my collection “accessible” to my heirs, both my wife and my only child are also Life Members of the ANA, and need no assistance to access what I might leave behind.