The US Mint has raised prices again. 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 2/20/2023 at 4:42 PM, World Colonial said:

I get that you dislike my replies to your opinion.  Nothing new about that.  I contradict what people want to hear and believe regularly.  What I told you in my last reply is an accurate reflection of how collectors view collecting.  I provided four specific reasons why "popular" doesn't necessarily equal preferred and each one is easy to demonstrate.

Your local auctions are a better indicator than Heritage?  Great, why don't you post a review covering the last 30 years segmented by volume and prices like I did from the Heritage archives?  If it contradicts Heritage, then you'll have a point.  Otherwise, it's just your unsubstantiated opinion.

You really wasted THAT MUCH of your valuable resources rehashing Heritage sales???? Oy vey!!!

[VKurtB]

On 2/20/2023 at 5:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe 15-20 years ago, but not know.  The online marketers DOMINATE this hobby nowadays.

Not in MY world. I have bought from Heritage exactly ONCE in my entire career. The address they have for me right now is 5 residences ago. In fairness, though, Stacks Bowers is only one out of date. GC just got updated to current. I buy ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY from non-online back country Pennsylvania auction houses. When I go to shows, I’m “foreign” focused, cuz that stuff ain’t in Pennsylvania country auctions. Why? Mostly geo-political reasons. They’re flag waving patriot MAGA types. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:48 AM, ldhair said:

I quit buying from the mint many years ago. The price was not a factor. It was the size of the collection and the space required that ended my buying. I enjoy what I have but there will never be enough time to actually pull everything out and actually look at it. 

The money I saved has gone a long way towards buying older coins that I enjoy more.

This is a disciplined approach that is respected. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:17 AM, VKurtB said:

Not in MY world. I have bought from Heritage exactly ONCE in my entire career. The address they have for me right now is 5 residences ago. In fairness, though, Stacks Bowers is only one out of date. GC just got updated to current. I buy ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY from non-online back country Pennsylvania auction houses. When I go to shows, I’m “foreign” focused, cuz that stuff ain’t in Pennsylvania country auctions. 

For you, this works.  For those of us with less time (and $$$  ) we need to get specific coins, usually certified, to meet our needs.

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For you, this works.  For those of us with less time (and $$$  ) we need to get specific coins, usually certified, to meet our needs.

I GET coins certified. I seldom BUY coins certified. My most recent one is, but that’s an exception. 

[VKurtB]

I find a world literally teeming with grading-worthy coins that are nonetheless still raw - the complete opposite of what beginners bring to us here on nearly a daily basis - grading-unworthy coins which they seek to imprison. I understand why people here would be unfamiliar with what I have had in Pennsylvania’s midland counties. But I assure you, it does exist, and in “meat space”, too. I don’t really need to be internet dependent. Lately I’ve been adding affordable ungraded Seated pieces, nicer ones. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

    Dealers at smaller coin shows have told me that most of their customers at such shows are interested in buying uncertified low to moderately priced coins for albums and similar traditional holders, as well as government issued sets in their original packaging.  Others are interested in obtaining bullion coins, especially Silver Eagles, but not certified ones. The vast majority of coins that appear on the "bid board" at meetings of my coin club are uncertified and are similar low to moderately priced items. I can't fathom why some collectors nowadays want to put such pieces in costly, bulky certified holders that greatly add to the weight and space required to store their collections.

   Regarding the original topic of this thread, I find the prices now being charged by the mint for most of its products unacceptable. I'll soon only be buying a clad proof set and uncirculated coin ("mint") set each year, as I did in the 1970s, when they were essentially the only products offered.

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:37 PM, Sandon said:

government issued sets in their original packaging.

AMEN TO THAT! Yes, if you’re one of the über-wealthy whose tastes run to slabbed stuff from over-hyped Heritage sales, good for you, I suppose. I prefer to pay waaaaaaay less for my Pennsylvania sourced raw material, and send in some of the stuff to NGC myself. And a “high end” buyer’s premium is 10%. Some have 0%. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:37 PM, Sandon said:

    Dealers at smaller coin shows have told me that most of their customers at such shows are interested in buying uncertified low to moderately priced coins for albums and similar traditional holders, as well as government issued sets in their original packaging.  Others are interested in obtaining bullion coins, especially Silver Eagles, but not certified ones. The vast majority of coins that appear on the "bid board" at meetings of my coin club are uncertified and are similar low to moderately priced items. I can't fathom why some collectors nowadays want to put such pieces in costly, bulky certified holders that greatly add to the weight and space required to store their collections.

   Regarding the original topic of this thread, I find the prices now being charged by the mint for most of its products unacceptable. I'll soon only be buying a clad proof set and uncirculated coin ("mint") set each year, as I did in the 1970s, when they were essentially the only products offered.

It’s clear that while @Sandon might not be a Pennsylvanian, it’s the same general region, with a very similar coin market. Keep in mind that the coin club in Lancaster, PA has a higher average  attendance (by far) than those in either Philadelphia or Chicago. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

Somewhat related to the OP.......the premiums on ASEs are still elevated.  If the Mint allowed more dealers to have Most Favored Nation status with the Mint and sell them....or better yet, dealt directly with the American people, the premiums would collapse.

The Mint benefits indirectly from these premiums as they can charge the dealers more and also mandate they buy other stuff/ from them.

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:37 PM, Sandon said:

    Dealers at smaller coin shows have told me that most of their customers at such shows are interested in buying uncertified low to moderately priced coins for albums and similar traditional holders, as well as government issued sets in their original packaging.  Others are interested in obtaining bullion coins, especially Silver Eagles, but not certified ones. The vast majority of coins that appear on the "bid board" at meetings of my coin club are uncertified and are similar low to moderately priced items. I can't fathom why some collectors nowadays want to put such pieces in costly, bulky certified holders that greatly add to the weight and space required to store their collections.

   Regarding the original topic of this thread, I find the prices now being charged by the mint for most of its products unacceptable. I'll soon only be buying a clad proof set and uncirculated coin ("mint") set each year, as I did in the 1970s, when they were essentially the only products offered.

I will keep getting everything to keep my Dansco 8000-series albums up to date. 

[Lem E]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:54 PM, VKurtB said:

I will keep getting everything to keep my Dansco 8000-series albums up to date. 

Do you do an album for the Innovation $s and if so, what do you use? I have yet to see a Dansco for those.

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:00 PM, Lem E said:

Do you do an album for the Innovation $s and if so, what do you use? I have yet to see a Dansco for those.

I’m waiting for a Dansco. I’m keeping them in direct fit capsules for the time being. Searching “book stock” at shows has yielded most of them in decent enough shape. Of course, I’m not obsessing over “extra stars”. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[Lem E]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:03 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m waiting for a Dansco. I’m keeping them in direct fit capsules for the time being. Searching “book stock” at shows has yielded most of them in decent enough shape. Of course, I’m not obsessing over “extra stars”. 

Has there been any talk of Dansco making one anytime soon?

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:08 PM, Lem E said:

Has there been any talk of Dansco making one anytime soon?

Yes, I believe they exist, but dealers need to order them. I’ve seen the blue “deluxe” Whitman at Rosemont last August. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[JT2]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:08 PM, Lem E said:

any talk of Dansco making one anytime soon?

 

On 2/21/2023 at 11:15 PM, VKurtB said:

exist, but dealers need to order them. I’v

Wizard supply has them... 

[World Colonial]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:11 AM, VKurtB said:

You really wasted THAT MUCH of your valuable resources rehashing Heritage sales???? Oy vey!!!

Took me a few hours which I can do while simultaneously doing something else.

[World Colonial]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe 15-20 years ago, but not know.  The online marketers DOMINATE this hobby nowadays.

Heritage and the few other larger auction firms represent a minority of annual coin sales because the vast majority of collectors are low budget collectors buying cheaper coins.  On the PCGS forum, a coin dealer has claimed that 80% of collectors won't pay more than $300 for a single coin which is consistent with the "budget section" at national shows, last time I went anyway.  Nothing new in that.

Edited February 22, 2023 by World Colonial

[World Colonial]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:48 PM, VKurtB said:

AMEN TO THAT! Yes, if you’re one of the über-wealthy whose tastes run to slabbed stuff from over-hyped Heritage sales, good for you, I suppose. I prefer to pay waaaaaaay less for my Pennsylvania sourced raw material, and send in some of the stuff to NGC myself. And a “high end” buyer’s premium is 10%. Some have 0%. 

You don't have to be uber wealthy to buy from Heritage.  I've spent less than $15,000 since I first bought from them in 2006, some since sold.  Average price is around $300 with many less than $100.

I'd buy from local dealers (graded or not) IF they had what I want to buy but they don't.  National shows (somewhat more than half a dozen) I've attended have something in my secondary collections, but not my primary interest.  

I agree the typical collector doesn't need to buy from Heritage or a source like it, but that's because what they collect is easy to find.  Lately, I've bought more from Stacks than anywhere else because that's who sells it.  Next month, it will be Aureo & Calico in Spain.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:23 PM, World Colonial said:

Heritage and the few other larger auction firms represent a minority of annual coin sales because the vast majority of collectors are low budget collectors buying cheaper coins.  On the PCGS forum, a coin dealer has claimed that 80% of collectors won't pay more than $300 for a single coin which is consistent with the "budget section" at national shows, last time I went anyway.  Nothing new in that.

I'm not sure I get what you are saying....you think the bulk of coin sales are not done by the auction companies ?  On a dollar basis, I'd probably disagree.  Heritage sells hundreds/thousands of items each week alone.  Maybe if you include ANY coin sale then the vast majority of Americans buying stuff from the Mint or their local bank might dwarf what I consider "true" numimsatics via sale online.

I wonder if those people sticking to < $300 coins think they are making investments in stuff that will appreciate, like the State Quarters programs ?

Edited February 22, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 2/22/2023 at 3:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not sure I get what you are saying....you think the bulk of coin sales are not done by the auction companies ?  On a dollar basis, I'd probably disagree.  Heritage sells hundreds/thousands of items each week alone.  Maybe if you include ANY coin sale then the vast majority of Americans buying stuff from the Mint or their local bank might dwarf what I consider "true" numimsatics via sale online.

I might be wrong, but yes, I am saying that.

It also depends upon what you mean by "auction companies".  I am excluding eBay from this definition, and I infer they easily sell more than all US auction firms (Heritage, Stacks, GC, Legend, Goldberg) combined.

Look at Heritage's annual report where they report annual value of prices realized by category.  I don't know what it was last year, but a few years ago, it was somewhere around $300MM (or $400MM tops) I believe for US coins.  Not sure it included their online marketplace but that's a lot less than auctions.

It's not as much as you seem to think.  Like as much as one or two mega priced art paintings.

I've estimated 2MM "active" US based collectors in the past.  Whatever the number, most are recreational hobbyists, not the type buying the coins you read about especially on the PCGS Forum.  Heritage still sells a large number of low priced (below $100) coins to my knowledge, but they are trying to move away from this type of consignor with their increased minimum buyer fee of $29.

On 2/22/2023 at 3:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder if those people sticking to < $300 coins think they are making investments in stuff that will appreciate, like the State Quarters programs ?

No, I don't think so.  I don't think most collectors think in these terms.  It's a hobby, not an "investment" to them.  You didn't answer, but in a prior reply here, I inferred this has to do with how you started collecting and the types of coins you buy.  Very few collectors proportionately buy the coins you do, except maybe Morgan dollars at the low end.

In this thread, I estimated that the majority spend something like $500 or less per year.  It's probably less than this on average.  $500 per year over decades equal $10,000, $20,000 or more.

I don't believe most collectors are spending that much, no way.

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:39 PM, World Colonial said:

You don't have to be uber wealthy to buy from Heritage.  I've spent less than $15,000 since I first bought from them in 2006, some since sold.  Average price is around $300 with many less than $100.

I'd buy from local dealers (graded or not) IF they had what I want to buy but they don't.  National shows (somewhat more than half a dozen) I've attended have something in my secondary collections, but not my primary interest.  

I agree the typical collector doesn't need to buy from Heritage or a source like it, but that's because what they collect is easy to find.  Lately, I've bought more from Stacks than anywhere else because that's who sells it.  Next month, it will be Aureo & Calico in Spain.

Sweet material. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:50 PM, World Colonial said:

I might be wrong, but yes, I am saying that.

It also depends upon what you mean by "auction companies".  I am excluding eBay from this definition, and I infer they easily sell more than all US auction firms (Heritage, Stacks, GC, Legend, Goldberg) combined.

Look at Heritage's annual report where they report annual value of prices realized by category.  I don't know what it was last year, but a few years ago, it was somewhere around $300MM (or $400MM tops) I believe for US coins.  Not sure it included their online marketplace but that's a lot less than auctions.

It's not as much as you seem to think.  Like as much as one or two mega priced art paintings.

I've estimated 2MM "active" US based collectors in the past.  Whatever the number, most are recreational hobbyists, not the type buying the coins you read about especially on the PCGS Forum.  Heritage still sells a large number of low priced (below $100) coins to my knowledge, but they are trying to move away from this type of consignor with their increased minimum buyer fee of $29.

No, I don't think so.  I don't think most collectors think in these terms.  It's a hobby, not an "investment" to them.  You didn't answer, but in a prior reply here, I inferred this has to do with how you started collecting and the types of coins you buy.  Very few collectors proportionately buy the coins you do, except maybe Morgan dollars at the low end.

In this thread, I estimated that the majority spend something like $500 or less per year.  It's probably less than this on average.  $500 per year over decades equal $10,000, $20,000 or more.

I don't believe most collectors are spending that much, no way.

Heritage is a small sliver, and St.Gaudens collectors can be housed in a small convention meeting room. Not the big ones with a Q. David Bowers talk, the REALLY small ones, like where I give MY talks. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:50 PM, World Colonial said:

In this thread, I estimated that the majority spend something like $500 or less per year.

This is pretty spot on in my view. Club types in active places are quite a bit higher than that, but those places are few. Lancaster has a very high disposable income. Incomes minus cost of basic living is high. The people are frugal to a fault and literally brag about how cheap they are. But they hold hidden wealth out the wazoo. 

[World Colonial]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:47 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I agree with WC that a person who does coin collecting activity or reading WEEKLY or even MONTHLY is certainly likely to know about Saints and/or Double Eagles.  For myself, I could go a few YEARS without doing any buying or looking.

When I was 12 shortly after returning to the US, I was already familiar with all US Mint type coins and some of the others in the Red Book too.  I don't think this is typical of most collectors but doubt it's that unusual either.

Now, I've learned more about specific US coins within different series from looking at auctions, the TPG data, and PCGS Coin Facts.  I don't collect any of it, but this isn't necessary to know something about it.

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

you think the bulk of coin sales are not done by the auction companies ? 

That is PRECISELY what I am saying. It’s not even arguable. Of upscale material? Sure. But not typical collector material. BTW, ALL U.S $20 coins are upscale, Saints AND Liberties. I don’t believe you appreciate how much of a unicorn you are in this hobby, Goldfinger. The “target” market for an ANA show is the collector whose purchase budget is $200-$500 for the whole stinking show. It is ENTIRELY possible I will complete an entire 4 day trip to Phoenix and not even CONSIDER buying a coin. Maybe a nice clean 2023 ASE for the ol’ Dansco, but not much else. I’m there for talks, doing Tableholder Registration badges, and some committee and board meetings. Helping get the Exhibiting controversies behind us will be a successful show. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:15 PM, VKurtB said:

BTW, ALL U.S $20 coins are upscale, Saints AND Liberties. 

Given the TPG population counts, most of both have to be owned by stacker type collectors or "investors".  Last I checked, the 1904 alone had 300,000 or so graded.  Multiple Saints are in the six figures.  Quite a few more in the five figures.  Maybe something like 10% are owned by type collectors, individually. Another noticeable minority as random purchases.  Few series collectors of either.  It's far too expensive.

On 2/22/2023 at 4:15 PM, VKurtB said:

The “target” market for an ANA show is the collector whose purchase budget is $200-$500 for the whole stinking show. 

Must be mostly dealer to dealer buying then.  Each national show I have attended (all but one ANA) had a "budget" section where I recall the inventory is mostly below $300 per coin but this seems to be a minority of the tables.

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:38 PM, World Colonial said:

Given the TPG population counts, most of both have to be owned by stacker type collectors or "investors".  Last I checked, the 1904 alone had 300,000 or so graded.  Multiple Saints are in the six figures.  Quite a few more in the five figures.  Maybe something like 10% are owned by type collectors, individually. Another noticeable minority as random purchases.  Few series collectors of either.  It's far too expensive.

Must be mostly dealer to dealer buying then.  Each national show I have attended (all but one ANA) had a "budget" section where I recall the inventory is mostly below $300 per coin but this seems to be a minority of the tables.

It’s not as simple as that, at the August ANA’s. Dealers buy in sections they like. Some very successful dealers go into “the cheap seats”. Take Berman for example. He does the NYINC in prime real estate, but buys budget section at ANA. Some world dealers don’t even go into the world section set aside. Ancients are slightly more disciplined. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by VKurtB