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ERROR - 1877 Trade silver dollar obverse and reverse Seated Liberty dollar (1840-1866)
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Started by Nemura,

35 posts in this topic

Greenstang

Greenstang

Posted
Posted (edited)

Welcome to the Forum

Please show a photo of the Obverse as well. ( Always show photos of both sides when making inquires)

Also explain what you are considering an error.

Edited by Greenstang
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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted

    Welcome to the NGC chat board.

   Unfortunately, what you have is an extremely crude cast replica or "fantasy piece" (a.k.a. counterfeit or fake) that combines the obverse and reverses of these two types, which doesn't exist as a genuine coin.  Many such pieces, as well as more deceptive counterfeits, come from Asia.  Note the very weak details and rough surfaces.  Compare it to photos of any genuine coins of these types in any condition, such as those on the NGC Coin Explorer (under the "Resources" tab on the NGC home page) or PCGS Coinfacts (www.pcgs.com/coinfacts), and you will immediately see the difference!  

 

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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted

     It's your money to spend as you wish. Please let us know how it turns out.  (If it were genuine, we would probably learn it from this website or the numismatic press, as it would be a major discovery.) While I don't need a scale to assess this piece, please note that the official weight of a Liberty Seated dollar is 26.73 grams and that of a Trade dollar is 27.22 grams.  I don't know why you believe that a weight of 25.12 grams favors its being authentic!

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Coinbuf

Coinbuf

Posted
Posted (edited)

It looks like a magician's coin there appears to be a seam that is quite visible along the edge of the obv.   That or as @Sandonsaid its a crude counterfeit, your choice but it will be a waste of your money to send this coin to any reputable TPG.

Edited by Coinbuf
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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

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Posted (edited)

Its not a counterfeit, at least not in the sense of indending to fool collectors, it's a "Magicians Coin", and I have seen these types of coins before when researching Trade Dollars.  I agree with @Coinbufthat there is a visible seam on the obverse between the denticles and edge.  You can see the seam all the way around the obverse, but it is most visible below the date.

They mill out the obverse of a Seated Liberty Dollar up to the edge, and then grind off the reverse and edge of a Trade Dollar until it can be press fit into the remaining portion of the Seated Liberty Dollar.  The following are links to an article about them and one magician/machinist making one of these coins ...

https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/the-mystery-behind-magicians-coins#:~:text=Many two-headed or 'magicians,separation hidden in the rim.

The Making of a Magician's Coin

Magicians will have 3 coins which are a Trade Dollar and a Seated Liberty Dollar along with the "magicians coin" and magically make one side of a coin appear on the other ... Alakazam!  It's your money and call to submit it to a TPG, but they don't certify magician's coins and it will come back in a body bag.

Edited by EagleRJO
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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted
On 2/4/2023 at 11:32 PM, bsshog40 said:

Well I can say it looks like it was made with counterfeit coins. 

They probably bought whatever they could find raw that would match up on eBay, so that wouldn't surprise me as it does look pretty rough with loss of detail.

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Hoghead515

Hoghead515

Posted
Posted (edited)

I agree its a magicians coin. Sending it in to have authenicated would be a good way to make your money disappear. Not only do you have the grading fee but theres other fees on top that for insurance, shipping, etc. The last time I had a coin graded it costed close to $80. They will ship it back to you without a slab holder and a tag that says not genuine. They will still keep your money. Wether it grades or not you still have to pay for their service because the graders working there have to take time to examine them. 

Edited by Hoghead515
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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 2/4/2023 at 8:32 PM, Nemura said:

I have a plan to send for certification (NGC). I think it's a real silver coin ( weight 25.12 gr.)

The only "error" is thinking this is an authentic coin. It is a counterfeit and of absolutely no value.

Consider:

Do you have expertise with US coins, specifically Trade dollars or Seated Liberty dollars?

Do you have any authentic Trade dollars?

Do you know how to detect 90% silver alloy?

Did you acquire this "thing" from a trusted source?

Do you have $50 to donate to NGC or PCGS so they can have a good laugh?

When you find something strange or odd, go the the Guide Book of US Coins and look for it. Compare the photos -- details, not generalities. Go to the NGC listings and look at authentic coins - again, compare details. If you remain confused, then post the coin and ask for opinions. Allow members to help you understand what you have, rather than you declaring what you think. The members know a lot more than you do about coins.

(Compare the obverse to the one Sandon posted, below. They must be identical.)

Edited by RWB
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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted (edited)

   As I've said before, if @Nemura still believes that his piece may be genuine, it's his choice to pay for a grading service's opinion.  The fact is, there are a tremendous number of counterfeit Trade dollars of varying ages and qualities, as well as an increasing number of counterfeit Seated dollars.  Most of them are readily detectable if you are really familiar with what the real ones look like. For the benefit of all viewers, I'm posting below the photo from the NGC Coin Explorer of the obverse of a genuine 1877 Trade dollar. Notice the enormous difference in the fine details and quality of strike of the coin from those in the pieces posted by @Nemura and @Mr.Bill347.  Moreover, all genuine 1877 and later (as well as some 1876) Trade dollars are from the "Obverse 2" hub, on which Liberty has five fingers on the hand holding the olive branch, not four. Additionally, on the "Obverse 2" the ribbon end points downward, not to the left as on Mr. Bill's piece. While the genuine coins change in appearance with wear and environmental damage, they never look like the pieces posted previously on this topic!

 

T$1-1877obvo.jpg

Edited by Sandon
corrected comment about ribbon end direction
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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted

   Here's the NGC Coin Explorer photo of the reverse of a genuine 1865 "No Motto" Seated dollar.  The difference in appearance from the originally posted piece speaks for itself.

4768244-001Rr.jpg

 

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Nemura

Nemura

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  • Author
Posted

I agree with Coinbuf and EagleRJO's opinion that it is a magician coin. And the answer to RWB's questions is YES.

"If you remain confused, then post the coin and ask for opinions" - I DID. Thank you all for your thoughts.

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powermad5000

powermad5000

Posted
Posted

There has been evidence of cutting coins in half in the past. There have been several "hobo" trade dollars for sale on eBay that were cut in half, hollowed out and had an internal hinge put inside to hide "stuff" inside the coin. Agree this is a magician's coin. There are also modern magicians quarters made with either two heads or two tails. Not worth submitting.

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted
On 2/5/2023 at 5:21 PM, Nemura said:

I agree with Coinbuf and EagleRJO's opinion that it is a magician coin. And the answer to RWB's questions is YES.

"If you remain confused, then post the coin and ask for opinions" - I DID. Thank you all for your thoughts.

Not quite. Your original post assumed it was an "error." Next time post the item and and simply ask for input - you should describe it, but don't presume what it is. OK? :)

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