2019 $1 coin with 14 stars, has this come up before 0

[Sandon]

   In my previous posts in this topic, I assumed that the anomaly occurred during the minting process.  The issue was whether it should be recognized as a significant mint error. 

   The "extra star" on the posted coin does appear to be raised as well as faint.  If coins can pick up "milling marks" from the edges of other coins with reeded edges, they may be able to pick up impressions of stars from the edges of other coins as well.  However, it seems that the impressed stars would appear on the obverses and reverses of other coins more often than the edges.  Has anyone seen modern dollars or other coins with images of stars so impressed? 

[EagleRJO]

I don't think the [raised] extra star on the op's coin came from a casual strike from another coin.  It looks to me like it was done with another coin that had incuse stars and a hammer.

Edited February 13, 2023 by EagleRJO

[RWB]

On 2/5/2023 at 7:03 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't think the extra star on the op's coin came from a casual strike from another coin.  I looks to me like it was done with another coin that had incuse stars and a hammer.

If the "extra"star is raised, then that is the most likely option, unless there is some way for and impressed coin to be forced into the edge of another with enough energy to depress hard bronze.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/5/2023 at 11:11 AM, Sandon said:

 In my previous posts in this topic, I assumed that the anomaly occurred during the minting process.  The issue was whether it should be recognized as a significant mint error. 

   The "extra star" on the posted coin does appear to be raised as well as faint.  If coins can pick up "milling marks" from the edges of other coins with reeded edges, they may be able to pick up impressions of stars from the edges of other coins as well.  However, it seems that the impressed stars would appear on the obverses and reverses of other coins more often than the edges.  Has anyone seen modern dollars or other coins with images of stars so impressed? 

My thought was that the extra star was not due to general contact from normal handling but added intentionally. 

I have not seen or heard of impressions from the incuse edge features being transferred to the obv or rev surfaces of other coins, if it does happen I wouldn't expect more than a very faint "v" mark to be visible. The amount of force needed to transfer a design from an incuse feature into a relief on another coin would be, well, a lot. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/5/2023 at 7:03 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't think the [raised] extra star on the op's coin came from a casual strike from another coin.  I looks to me like it was done with another coin that had incuse stars and a hammer.

Agreed.

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/4/2023 at 1:08 PM, J P M said:

Welcome FredrickMorris. I am no spring chicken and the members here love to help the new collectors. What I think is important is that the newer generation is not misinformed by the hype that is created by bad internet information on coin errors. I am a roll hunter/collector and I search for book coins and errors all the time. Sometimes I find a coin to add to my collection . Most of what I find is just PMD or a coin so old and messed up the error is diminished. I am not afraid to post a coin here if I think it has potential. I like the fact the members here are very knowledgeable on many aspects of numismatics and are not afraid to speak there mind on what is important like ..the truth not hearsay. The truth is hard to accept for most because there is almost always a monetary factor involved. Almost all new members believe that they have something special and it may be but we try give them all the correct information to go with.     

Thank you for the welcome, we have had several conversations with the Mint about what we've found, they are award of the error and are taking steps, we are told to correct it. The most current roll released 2023 D Underground Rail Road, or I should say the roll we received had three coins with extra stars, one with 14 and the others 15. We've forwarded photo's of the coins and will have a follow-up with them about the additional stars. They are also aware of the additional stars found on some of the President Coins. Not all rolls have had this issue/error but several have and from the D Mint.

[FrederickMorris]

Thank you for the welcome, we have had several conversations with the Mint about what we've found, they are award of the error and are taking steps, we are told to correct it. The most current roll released 2023 D Underground Rail Road, or I should say the roll we received had three coins with extra stars, one with 14 and the others 15. We've forwarded photo's of the coins and will have a follow-up with them about the additional stars. They are also aware of the additional stars found on some of the President Coins. Not all rolls have had this issue/error but several have and from the D Mint.

[FrederickMorris]

Going through the last roll today we found one coin where the star is found under the U in Unum and an additional M between the 3 and 4th star

Thank you to all who have provided helpful feedback, will keep you posted what we learn from the mint.

[Hoghead515]

Sounds like if its happening at the mint then one of the workers is fooling around doing it intentionally. I dont see how the machinery could do that to the coin. Espically where its raised and supposed to be incuse. You can clearly tell thats raised. Show us pics of all these other coins and it may help us determine whats going on. Being so many found in one roll just further helps the case that it was done intentionally. Because when they are struck and fall into those bins they are being bounced around and getting all mixed up. I think someone at the mint or the people who wrapped them done it intentionally. If they did then its damage and not an error. Be nice to see some pictures of the other coins. Im one the see it to believe it type of people. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Hoghead515

[J P M]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:19 AM, FrederickMorris said:

Thank you for the welcome, we have had several conversations with the Mint about what we've found, they are award of the error and are taking steps, we are told to correct it. The most current roll released 2023 D Underground Rail Road, or I should say the roll we received had three coins with extra stars, one with 14 and the others 15. We've forwarded photo's of the coins and will have a follow-up with them about the additional stars. They are also aware of the additional stars found on some of the President Coins. Not all rolls have had this issue/error but several have and from the D Mint.

Well it sounds like you have a shop with perhaps a repour with the mint. If that is the case and you have access to new 2023 coins and the information would be first hand. If you could post some of your finds I would love to take a look and try to help decipher the cause. I love a good mystery ..  

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/7/2023 at 7:10 AM, J P M said:

Well it sounds like you have a shop with perhaps a repour with the mint. If that is the case and you have access to new 2023 coins and the information would be first hand. If you could post some of your finds I would love to take a look and try to help decipher the cause. I love a good mystery ..  

 

[J P M]

On 2/7/2023 at 9:40 AM, FrederickMorris said:

 

Well it does not look like a star but something looks like it was in the rim press when it went through. Is it the same shape and location on other coins you have looked at?

[Hoghead515]

Im still thinking these were done intentionally. Some kind of incuse punch or another coin. You can clearly see the flat area around the extra star. In the new picture it kind of looks like it was tooled on. Some kind of tool scratched back and forth in that area. Looks like it to me anyways. They are out of line of the other stars as well. My vote goes for damage. I could be wrong but Id have to see some hard evidence to change my mind. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Hoghead515

[VKurtB]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:34 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Im still thinking these were done intentionally. Some kind of incuse punch or another coin. You can clearly see the flat area around the extra star. In the new picture it kind of looks like it was tooled on. Some kind of tool scratched back and forth in that area. Looks like it to me anyways. They are out of line of the other stars as well. My vote goes for damage. I could be wrong but Id have to see some hard evidence to change my mind. 

I agree fully. What is troublesome here is that the majority of this seems to be on American Innovation coins, which can ONLY be obtained directly from the Mint in rolls or bags. They are not in the banking system. They are not even in any uncirculated set. There are only two possibilities. Either this is crummy quality control, or intentional damage. Just think what would be necessary for it to be otherwise. These extra stars are raised, not incuse like the normal ones. I smell a rat. They have to be transferred from another coin. There is no alternative. If they had had a second run through the lettering due, they’d all be incuse. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:57 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Sounds like if its happening at the mint then one of the workers is fooling around doing it intentionally. I dont see how the machinery could do that to the coin. Espically where its raised and supposed to be incuse. You can clearly tell thats raised. Show us pics of all these other coins and it may help us determine whats going on. Being so many found in one roll just further helps the case that it was done intentionally. Because when they are struck and fall into those bins they are being bounced around and getting all mixed up. I think someone at the mint or the people who wrapped them done it intentionally. If they did then its damage and not an error. Be nice to see some pictures of the other coins. Im one the see it to believe it type of people. 

Here is a photo of a coin with an addition N or M , we are now speaking with Dept of Printing and Engraving also. It is interesting to me that this has been known so long and the only interest seems to be money. I love the hunt, the search for something new, something not expected and it has been really cool finding these errors.

[EagleRJO]

For the prior coins you posted with the extra stars, those stars appear to be be raised, in which case it would just be PMD intentional or otherwise.  I assume you have been able to confirm the extra stars are in fact raised.

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On 2/7/2023 at 12:34 PM, Hoghead515 said:

You can clearly see the flat area around the extra star. In the new picture it kind of looks like it was tooled on. Some kind of tool scratched back and forth in that area. Looks like it to me anyways. They are out of line of the other stars as well. My vote goes for damage.

The coin above (with comments about that from Hoghead) appears to have a not so well defined raised star that is offset and misaligned, and just above the star appears to be an incuse area.  Perhaps that area was struck through something, and then the raised star was added.  Or the incuse area could just be tool marks as suggested by Hoghead.  In any event the star appears to be raised again, so that would also just be PMD intentional or otherwise.

Since you have been in touch with the mint about these coins with raised extra stars, what has been the response from the mint?

Edited February 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:19 AM, FrederickMorris said:

Here is a photo of a coin with an addition N or M , we are now speaking with Dept of Printing and Engraving also. It is interesting to me that this has been known so long and the only interest seems to be money. I love the hunt, the search for something new, something not expected and it has been really cool finding these errors.

I think this coin with the apparent extra "N" or "M" is interesting.  I think it might be an "N" as it would be misshapen if it was an "M".  Is that, as well as the marks on either side, raised or incuse?  The mark on the left of the N appears to be raised, but it's pretty hard to tell from just photos.

Also, what is the mint saying about this coin?

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:03 AM, EagleRJO said:

I assume you have been able to confirm the extra stars are in fact raised.

A simple question that has yet to be answered. 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/9/2023 at 5:54 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

A simple question that has yet to be answered. 

I haven't sent these to be confirmed yet, reached out to you all and social media platforms searching for some insight. Feed back has been mixed but most have said they had either seen it too or had been told just spend it. Too bad really as this issue might have been addressed at the start of the President coin process.  The oddest one I have seen so far is the coin with the star under the "U" of Unum. We are in search of a local appraiser but will keep you posted on the results.  My collection is based mainly on errors, oddities and mis-stamped coins, thank you all for you input it is greatly appreciated.

[FrederickMorris]

New question - I just mailed off two coins that appear to be 1929 P pennies printed over a foreign coin. In these two cases, the copper cracked across the front of the coin in both to reveal printing of some type under it. Using a computer scope we have been able to capture images of a few letters but am wondering how often this was done and was the process used on other US Coins?

Edited February 9, 2023 by FrederickMorris

[Sandon]

@FrederickMorris--Please post your "new question" as a new topic, with photos of the item in question if possible.

  Yes, it is possible for a coin to be struck--not "printed"--over a previously struck coin, with elements of the previous strike, called the "undertype", still showing. The U.S. mint struck coins for various foreign countries over the years, so it is possible that such an over-strike exists. We can't offer an opinion as to whether or not you have found one without seeing it.

[EagleRJO]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:03 AM, EagleRJO said:

I assume you have been able to confirm the extra stars are in fact raised.

On 2/9/2023 at 6:54 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

A simple question that has yet to be answered. 

On 2/9/2023 at 10:27 AM, FrederickMorris said:

I haven't sent these to be confirmed yet ...

@FrederickMorrisYou don't need to send the coin somewhere to check if the extra stars are raised (projects above the surface of the edge) or incuse (set in below the surface of the edge).  Just hold the coin looking along the edge, with some magnification as needed which can be about 10x, like with a loupe or magnifying glass.  Pretty simple to do yourself, and would help answer an important question about the coins.

[VKurtB]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:20 PM, EagleRJO said:

@FrederickMorrisYou don't need to send the coin somewhere to check if the extra stars are raised (projects above the surface of the edge) or incuse (set in below the surface of the edge).  Just hold the coin looking along the edge, with some magnification as needed which can be about 10x, like with a loupe or magnifying glass.  Pretty simple to do yourself, and would help answer an important question about the coins.

No, this is just another guy who thinks anything he sees needs to be sent for grading. It’s just really sad what this hobby has become. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by VKurtB

[Fenntucky Mike]

I'm out until the OP actually has some tangible numismatic evidence and can answer a simple question. Me smells a troll I think. Too bad.

Based on the shadows and lighting direction I think there is little doubt that the features in question are raised and unless a reasonable explanation is provided I would consider the coin/s damaged and intentionally altered. If the U.S. Mint responds, great, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:26 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'm out until the OP actually has some tangible numismatic evidence and can answer a simple question. Me smells a troll I think. Too bad.

Based on the shadows and lighting direction I think there is little doubt that the features in question are raised and unless a reasonable explanation is provided I would consider the coin/s damaged and intentionally altered. If the U.S. Mint responds, great, but I'm not holding my breath. 

I’m holding the OP’s breath. 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:56 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m holding the OP’s breath. 

Really, pretty sad, first I came to the forum after directed to do so when I called NGC. like many it is sad to see what the hobby has become, mine were and are honest questions about a coin with an extra star. And another with extra letters "E" and was hoping others would have seen this also and could tell me more about it. If you can't give an informative answer there's no need to be rude, name calling and worse, who would have ever thought you so called experts would be so boorish and rude. I joined NGC to help me find answers to a variety of coins in my collection, and yes, we have put these questions to engraving and printing also, and have sent some to be graded also, again thank you to all who provided help look forward to presenting other coins as well and will just have to disregard the silliness of the cranky folks, wish them well its all one can do.

Rev. Morris, St. Elisabeth's Church

 

[JT2]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:30 PM, VKurtB said:

There are only two possibilities. Either this is crummy quality control, or intentional damage.

what do you expect for $20 hr these days perfection.....................hahahahhaah

[J P M]

Hear is a thought. The mint is always trying to save a buck.  Perhaps the star coin edge press was used for other older edge lettering and not all of the old lettering was removed enough and there are ghosts impressions left behind.  Kinda like a O over CC die. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by J P M

[VKurtB]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:04 AM, FrederickMorris said:

Really, pretty sad, first I came to the forum after directed to do so when I called NGC. like many it is sad to see what the hobby has become, mine were and are honest questions about a coin with an extra star. And another with extra letters "E" and was hoping others would have seen this also and could tell me more about it. If you can't give an informative answer there's no need to be rude, name calling and worse, who would have ever thought you so called experts would be so boorish and rude. I joined NGC to help me find answers to a variety of coins in my collection, and yes, we have put these questions to engraving and printing also, and have sent some to be graded also, again thank you to all who provided help look forward to presenting other coins as well and will just have to disregard the silliness of the cranky folks, wish them well its all one can do.

Rev. Morris, St. Elisabeth's Church

 

Special preview just for you: THE BUREAU OF ENGRAVING AND PRINTING HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH MAKING COINS! All you have done by contacting them is to waste your time and theirs. 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:03 PM, VKurtB said:

Special preview just for you: THE BUREAU OF ENGRAVING AND PRINTING HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH MAKING COINS! All you have done by contacting them is to waste your time and theirs. 

Thankfully that is not the case at all. Information, leadership, and process are all keys to understanding our coins, their make up, and design and why so many are turning green or bubbling and worn so much sooner than in the past.