2019 $1 coin with 14 stars, has this come up before 0

[FrederickMorris]

The importance of elder collectors is their sharing of facts and information they have gathered over the years. Dismissing coins with errors simply because it is not the "coin" of the day is dismissive and lacks encouragement of new collectors. These coins are out there, in circulation and many depend on seasoned collectors to let us know they are there and what to look for. Happy collecting...

Edited February 4, 2023 by FrederickMorris
new information

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the Forum

Before anyone can help you, we will require a clear photo of BOTH sides. Looking forward to see what you have.

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.

   Please post pertinent photos and more details about your inquiry. In 2019 the U.S. mint issued Native American dollars with a design showing ten stars on the reverse.  The mint also issued four different American Innovation dollars, one of which, the Delaware issue, has six stars on the reverse.  All five issues also have stars on the edge. To which issue and which mint are you referring, and where do you see an anomaly?

EDIT 2/4/23: For the benefit of those reading this topic for the first time, @FrederickMorriscompletely changed his initial post from "2019 $1 coin with 14 stars, has this come up before" and no photos to instead initiate a debate as to what sorts of mint errors are worth collecting.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Sandon
original poster's deletion of entire initial post and substitution of different topic

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:09 PM, Greenstang said:

Welcome to the Forum

Before anyone can help you, we will require a clear photo of BOTH sides. Looking forward to see what you have.

ok I am new to this stuff 72 here lets try

[FrederickMorris]

I have also found $1 president coins with 14/15 Stars, is this also known if not how do I get it recorded?

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:09 PM, Greenstang said:

Welcome to the Forum

Before anyone can help you, we will require a clear photo of BOTH sides. Looking forward to see what you have.

 

[Sandon]

  I assume that you are referring to the faint star between the two bold stars as a "fourteenth" star.  Anomalies in the edge lettering on small dollar coins made since 2007 aren't very uncommon.  The only ones that have attracted a following and are listed as being worth a premium in standard numismatic price guides are earlier (mostly 2007-2009) Presidential dollars with missing edge lettering (completely plain edges).  The NGC Price Guide also lists a 2007 John Adams variety with completely doubled edge lettering. (It might be helpful to see the entire edge of this coin.)

   I doubt that NGC or other reputable grading services would find this anomaly significant enough to certify as a mint error or that collectors would pay much for it. Perhaps someone else on the forum will have a different opinion.

  

[RWB]

Small dollar edge devices are not applied when the faces are struck. They are impressed by running the pieces through mill, and skips, over runs and other errors are known. As Sandon noted, only blank edge coins have any premium.

[VKurtB]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:29 PM, RWB said:

Small dollar edge devices are not applied when the faces are struck. They are impressed by running the pieces through mill, and skips, over runs and other errors are known. As Sandon noted, only blank edge coins have any premium.

I am led to understand that the proof versions have their edge details applied DURING striking, unlike the normal versions. 

[Sandon]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:43 PM, VKurtB said:

I am led to understand that the proof versions have their edge details applied DURING striking, unlike the normal versions. 

  I also understand that the proofs are struck in a three-part or "tripartite" collar similar to those used on "Indian" head eagles and St. Gaudens double eagles.  The edge lettering is imparted as the coin is struck. You can see grooves on the edges of coins so struck where the pieces of the collar came together. I've never heard of blundered edges on coins so struck.

[VKurtB]

It never even occurred to me there was supposed to be 13 stars. I just thought they were space fillers. 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:43 PM, VKurtB said:

I am led to understand that the proof versions have their edge details applied DURING striking, unlike the normal versions. 

I have worked for the US Government for 32 years and collecting coins for over 60, I have contacted several friends working in at the mint and the department of Treasury and am here to tell you, both of you are wrong.  The presidential coins have in fact been found to have 14/15 stars, some stars have even appeared under the wording on the edge of the $1 Pres. Bush Coin, one coin of note is the $1 Bush Coin Pres coin with 15 stars, with the 14 showing up "under" the U of unum, this coin is on its way to a museum in Norfolk, VA, as it given through a change machine Operate at the NOB Naval Station Car Wash. There are three known to exist, the second recently sold for several thousand dollars at a New York Auction.  Hayes, Wilson, Bush and Kennedy President dollars are also recorded as having 14/15 starts equally as difficult to find. Every year we do what is called the Laboratory Roll which only means we visit offices in our region for a yearly inspection and while at these military bases, we intentionally use the car wash on base as it gives out dollar coins. We have therefore recorded finds at each location, errors, missing letters, grease errors, additional stars, cataloging these coins and sending the findings to the US Mint and other offices, there is a great deal of value in these coins due in part to the rarity of the coins, such as those we came across and those still out there. Many collectors who do not currently have them, are seeking them now before prices escalate.  Within our 4000 members, only 6 have found star coins. Keep in mind that the mint and collectors refused to acknowledge the 1952 and 1953 Superman quarters, or the 1982 no mint mark dimes or the buffalo nickels some with three feathers some with two. It all depended on who found it, when it was found, and which collectors collected them before any of these mentioned became worthy of collecting. So, before you toss those dollar coins with additional stars, one might want to hold on to them before they become as rare as a 1983 penny 3.1g. Just a thought... 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:43 PM, VKurtB said:

I am led to understand that the proof versions have their edge details applied DURING striking, unlike the normal versions. 

not true at all, sorry

 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:29 PM, RWB said:

Small dollar edge devices are not applied when the faces are struck. They are impressed by running the pieces through mill, and skips, over runs and other errors are known. As Sandon noted, only blank edge coins have any premium.

 

On 2/3/2023 at 7:29 PM, RWB said:

Small dollar edge devices are not applied when the faces are struck. They are impressed by running the pieces through mill, and skips, over runs and other errors are known. As Sandon noted, only blank edge coins have any premium.

sadly this normally means you don't have one, they are highly collectable and are in fact regarded as an error by the mint

[VKurtB]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:54 PM, FrederickMorris said:

not true at all, sorry

 

Frederick, you have lost any and all credibility. The proof version are as I described them and your denial destroys any credibility you might have had. By the way, the mainstream of the hobby STILL doesn’t recognize Superman quarters. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by VKurtB

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Frederick, you have lost any and all credibility. The proof version are as I described them and your denial destroys any credibility you might have had. By the way, the mainstream of the hobby STILL doesn’t recognize Superman quarters. 

 

On 2/3/2023 at 11:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Frederick, you have lost any and all credibility. The proof version are as I described them and your denial destroys any credibility you might have had. By the way, the mainstream of the hobby STILL doesn’t recognize Superman quarters. 

No sir, you are wrong and quick to discern, . Mint striking errors are caused by the collar moving, cracking, or not being present in the minting process. "The collar is a third die that actually holds the coin in place in the minting process. It is the collar that imprints the lettering on a coin, such as the lettering on the Presidential dollars (direct qt from mint). Or perhaps that is what you were saying and I didn't understand you.Before casting unfounded statements, realize there is always something new out there. Every day new ERRORs are found, Because they haven't been recorded as yet, doesn't mean they are not errors. I will return to the mint experts, they appear to be up to date on these and other errors.

[VKurtB]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:37 PM, FrederickMorris said:

 

No sir, you are wrong and quick to discern, . Mint striking errors are caused by the collar moving, cracking, or not being present in the minting process. "The collar is a third die that actually holds the coin in place in the minting process. It is the collar that imprints the lettering on a coin, such as the lettering on the Presidential dollars (direct qt from mint). Or perhaps that is what you were saying and I didn't understand you.Before casting unfounded statements, realize there is always something new out there. Every day new ERRORs are found, Because they haven't been recorded as yet, doesn't mean they are not errors. I will return to the mint experts, they appear to be up to date on these and other errors.

 

The edge lettering and features on circulation quality small dollars are applied AFTER striking, as @RWB has written above. The same lettering is applied in an utterly different process on the proof coins, one that uses the collar during striking. This is just undeniable fact. Most of what people call errors are nothing of the sort. 

[FrederickMorris]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:08 AM, VKurtB said:

The edge lettering and features on circulation quality small dollars are applied AFTER striking, as @RWB has written above. The same lettering is applied in an utterly different process on the proof coins, one that uses the collar during striking. This is just undeniable fact. Most of what people call errors are nothing of the sort. 

LOL sad very sad, I was reaching out search for unbiased information based on information I have acquired from the Mint and Dept Treasury, Like the super man quarters, I would and am telling our members to hold on to those coins with 14 and 15 stars, as with other undefined errors, these too will come into their own, happy collecting 

[Sandon]

     @FrederickMorris--You asked in your initial post in the "Newbie Coin Collector Questions" forum, 

On 2/3/2023 at 5:56 PM, FrederickMorris said:

2019 $1 coin with 14 stars, has this come up before

    You now claim to be an experienced collector who has substantial knowledge of these edge variations, including from mint personnel, claim that they are valuable, and disagree with three members of this forum who sought to advise you, two of whom (@VKurtB and me) are also older, experienced collectors and the third of whom (@RWB) is a numismatic scholar and published author, whose series on the evolution of production processes for U.S. proof coins is currently being published in The Numismatist.  This is not to say that any of us knows everything or couldn't make a mistake.  However, if you were confident that you already knew the answers, why would you ask us?

   While you may find "extra star(s)" or other edge letter anomalies on modern dollars interesting and are free to look for and collect them, so far as I know, they have attracted no great interest in the numismatic marketplace and are not attributed by grading services. You are free to contact NGC, PCGS, and ANACS to make your case in this regard. (ANACS often recognizes errors and varieties the other services don't.) If you and your friends are finding a lot of these coins, they are probably too common to attract enough demand to become very valuable, assuming that enough collectors find them interesting.  They may indeed be "errors", but not all errors are or will ever be valuable. That is determined by supply and demand!

   Regarding the differences in production methods for circulation quality and proof modern dollars with lettered edges, the seventh edition (2021) of A Guide Book of United States Coins--Mega Red (the expanded deluxe edition, with a special section on dollar coins) at p. 887, goes into some detail, in pertinent part as follows:  "For circulating and Uncirculated Mint set coins, after coins are struck on coinage presses [presumably with a plain collar], the struck coins are transported from the coin presses to the edge lettering equipment. . . . The coins pass through an edge lettering segment or die bearing the raised lettering that is imparted incuse on the finished coin. . .." (quoting from Coin World article).  "For Proofs the edge lettering was applied with a three-segmented collar during the striking process." This discussion pertained to the Presidential dollars, but nothing in this book or anything else that I have read indicates that the edge lettering processes for American Innovation dollars are any different. From what source do you have different information? 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Sandon

[RWB]

Sandon's comment  is correct as far as any information I have from the U.S' Mint Bureau.

Post-strike edge lettering/ornamentation is much faster and cheaper than the tripart collar used for proofs. Maintenance costs are low and inspection is handled by machine. There is a greater percentage of defective edge lettering than during striking, but the QA system catches most.

Edited February 4, 2023 by RWB

[FrederickMorris]

I totally agree with most of what you say but with a many objections. First, I am a newie on or in this forum and was search out general information to test the waters of knowledge within the group and to find what opportunities there might be in open minded review of a variety of errors being passed up. I come from a long line of coin collectors, authors, and authorities on coins. Myself with 32 years with the government on a host of issues, positions and career, I sadly have come to the conclusion that most experts at sometime or other find themselves in the mud, which I mean to say that they have limited themselves to what they know and toss out of hand what they don't. And as you say, supply and demand is a great part of this collecting passion but sadly the other side of this is the negative acceptance of anything new. Like the floating roof, floating head varieties that took a long time to be acknowledged or the S superman quarters which now command a nice sum but were discouraged by most of the TOP Agencies. Our small group of collective if you will, hope to encourage collecting and opening the scope of collecting to old and new collections, to acknowledge there are new errors out there rather then simply dismissing them as not import. As you and I both know, what is not a collectable coin today might very well be the great find of tomorrow. We hope to encourage new collectors, seeking out new errors that come from new computerized methods not known before like the black eyed US Grant $1, the spitting 2022 penny, the 1991 Devil penny caused when two bits of cud landed just in the right spot on the head of old Abe, these and many fun errors are out there. I personally, have studied coins since 1953, my grandfather from 1930 and we've come across a great many errors not listed and we have seen collecting decrease in interest throughout the years during to a variety of reasons. Of my nine brothers, only one does not collect coins, he's into stamps but we all face the same issues of declining interest. We as many collectors, hope to revive coin collecting by encouraging, accepting and cataloging new finds, new errors.  Best to you all, happy collecting.     

[RWB]

All sorts of people collect coins, and one of the nice things about the hobby is that there is no definition of what to collect. It's a matter of personal interest and enjoyment not necessarily related to any kind of monetary value. Certainly, share your interests and discoveries with others; but don't expect others to react the same way you do to a particular piece. Just a thought.

[VKurtB]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:16 AM, FrederickMorris said:

I totally agree with most of what you say but with a many objections. First, I am a newie on or in this forum and was search out general information to test the waters of knowledge within the group and to find what opportunities there might be in open minded review of a variety of errors being passed up. I come from a long line of coin collectors, authors, and authorities on coins. Myself with 32 years with the government on a host of issues, positions and career, I sadly have come to the conclusion that most experts at sometime or other find themselves in the mud, which I mean to say that they have limited themselves to what they know and toss out of hand what they don't. And as you say, supply and demand is a great part of this collecting passion but sadly the other side of this is the negative acceptance of anything new. Like the floating roof, floating head varieties that took a long time to be acknowledged or the S superman quarters which now command a nice sum but were discouraged by most of the TOP Agencies. Our small group of collective if you will, hope to encourage collecting and opening the scope of collecting to old and new collections, to acknowledge there are new errors out there rather then simply dismissing them as not import. As you and I both know, what is not a collectable coin today might very well be the great find of tomorrow. We hope to encourage new collectors, seeking out new errors that come from new computerized methods not known before like the black eyed US Grant $1, the spitting 2022 penny, the 1991 Devil penny caused when two bits of cud landed just in the right spot on the head of old Abe, these and many fun errors are out there. I personally, have studied coins since 1953, my grandfather from 1930 and we've come across a great many errors not listed and we have seen collecting decrease in interest throughout the years during to a variety of reasons. Of my nine brothers, only one does not collect coins, he's into stamps but we all face the same issues of declining interest. We as many collectors, hope to revive coin collecting by encouraging, accepting and cataloging new finds, new errors.  Best to you all, happy collecting.     

And MY hope is to DISCOURAGE people from collecting dopey errors with cutsy-pie names. So here we are. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Submit the coin, and see what happens.

[Sandon]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:56 PM, FrederickMorris said:

The importance of elder collectors is their sharing of facts and information they have gathered over the years

   I agree!  I have been a collector and student of numismatics for 52 years.  In my experience, only major or spectacular errors, such as coins struck way off center or multiple times in different positions or on wrong planchets, or major die varieties such as the 1955 and 1972 (Redbook variety). doubled die cents and clear "over-mintmarks" ever attract enough attention in the market to be worth a substantial premium. Most of these errors and varieties can be seen with the naked eye or low magnification.  True scarcity is also a major factor in whether a coin ever becomes really valuable.  Hucksters have promoted certain errors or varieties that they own in quantity to make money on them, after which their values tend to decline. Others gain a continuing following among a small minority of collectors, who will pay a modest or moderate premium for them.

   I assume that by "Superman" quarter @FrederickMorris means the 1952 proof quarter with a tiny squiggly line inside one of the eagle's breast feathers that resembles an "S". This is generally known as the "Superbird" variety and is listed in the Cherrypickers' Guide and other detailed references and attributed by grading services.  (I've never heard of and can find no reference to a 1953 "Superbird".)  This is one of those high magnification varieties that has a following among a small minority of collectors.  I recently examined the 1952 proof set that I bought many years ago and found that I had one.  I would not have paid a premium for it then or now.  

   We are dealing daily on these forums with new or casual collectors who claim to have found--or worse purchased for a premium--significant errors or varieties. In most cases, these are coins with post-mint damage or alterations or ugly pieces that were struck from worn dies.  Others are in our opinion minor anomalies such as the barely visible "14th star" on the edge of a modern dollar that originally started this topic and are unlikely ever to carry substantial premiums. We regard this as a consumer protection issue and seek to educate these younger and inexperienced collectors about them.  Others may have different opinions.

   

[J P M]

Welcome FredrickMorris. I am no spring chicken and the members here love to help the new collectors. What I think is important is that the newer generation is not misinformed by the hype that is created by bad internet information on coin errors. I am a roll hunter/collector and I search for book coins and errors all the time. Sometimes I find a coin to add to my collection . Most of what I find is just PMD or a coin so old and messed up the error is diminished. I am not afraid to post a coin here if I think it has potential. I like the fact the members here are very knowledgeable on many aspects of numismatics and are not afraid to speak there mind on what is important like ..the truth not hearsay. The truth is hard to accept for most because there is almost always a monetary factor involved. Almost all new members believe that they have something special and it may be but we try give them all the correct information to go with.     

[Fenntucky Mike]

I'm not convinced this happened during minting. Is the extra star raised or incuse?

I have a real tough time determining incuse features from pictures but to me the extra star looks raised and the area around it flattened as if another coin was pressed against the coin pictured. I'm also wondering how the extra star could be positioned that much out of alignment to the others and how it could be rotated, guessing 20 deg., again in comparison to the other stars? 

I just don't see that being very likely with how the coins are fed through the edge lettering die. But Maybe. 

EDIT TO ADD: I'm assuming that the U.S. Mint is still using the Schuler RS-50 edge-lettering and rimming machines to apply the edge-lettering.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
More Info

[VKurtB]

On 2/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'm not convinced this happened during minting. Is the extra star raised or incuse?

I have a real tough time determining incuse features from pictures but to me the extra star looks raised and the area around it flattened as if another coin was pressed against the coin pictured. I'm also wondering how the extra star could be positioned that much out of alignment to the others and how it could be rotated, guessing 20 deg., again in comparison to the other stars? 

I just don't see that being very likely with how the coins are fed through the edge lettering die. But Maybe. 

EDIT TO ADD: I'm assuming that the U.S. Mint is still using the Schuler RS-50 edge-lettering and rimming machines to apply the edge-lettering.

Correct. 

[EagleRJO]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:20 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'm not convinced this happened during minting. Is the extra star raised or incuse?

I have a real tough time determining incuse features from pictures but to me the extra star looks raised and the area around it flattened as if another coin was pressed against the coin pictured. I'm also wondering how the extra star could be positioned that much out of alignment to the others and how it could be rotated, guessing 20 deg., again in comparison to the other stars? 

I just don't see that being very likely with how the coins are fed through the edge lettering die. But Maybe. 

The extra star does look raised and not incuse to me also, as if someone placed the edge of one coin up against that one and struck the extra star.

Maybe the op could look at the coin in-hand and let us know if it's a raised extra star.

Edited February 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:53 PM, EagleRJO said:

The extra star does look raised and not incuse to me also, as if someone placed the edge of one coin up against that one and struck the extra star.

Maybe the op could look at the coin in-hand and let us know if it's a raised extra star.

I agree it looks like a rim hit from another coin. Looking at the photo it left a impression of the other coins edge if you look close it runs on a 22' angle. More than likely a bag mark look to me

Edited February 5, 2023 by J P M