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Grading/Encapsulating coins for conservation not value..Do you do it?
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17 posts in this topic

We all know it costs money to grade coins. Usually the money we spend is purley to authenticate, solidify the value and/or raise the value of the coin. That being said I have sometimes decided to grade a non key or non better date coin in decent condition that was not really that special. Why? Since most do not grade these coins they are in jeopardy of being lost. The worn coins with personality are important to conserve in that condition just as the perfect BU, key and better dates are.  I don't do this alot but sometimes a coin just says save me. Below is an example of an orphan coin I had to save. Purchased raw for $12.00. Cost $23.00 to grade. Worth $28.00-$35.00 not so good fiscally but priceless to me that it is now a real marketable coin conserved, stabilized and ready to gain value. Thoughts? Post your orphans and tell us why you grade them or why you don't.

1883 No Cents 5c.jpg

1883 No Cents 5c 2.jpg

Edited by Mike Meenderink
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On 2/1/2023 at 9:26 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

We all know it costs money to grade coins. Usually the money we spend is purley to authenticate, solidify the value and/or raise the value of the coin. That being said I have sometimes decided to grade a non key or non better date coin in decent condition that was not really that special. Why? Since most do not grade these coins they are in jeopardy of being lost. The worn coins with personality are important to conserve in that condition just as the perfect BU, key and better dates are.  I don't do this alot but sometimes a coin just says save me. Below is an example of an orphan coin I had to save. Purchased raw for $12.00. Cost $23.00 to grade. Worth $28.00-$35.00 not so good fiscally but priceless to me that it is now a real marketable coin conserved, stabilized and ready to gain value. Thoughts? Post your orphans and tell us why you grade them or why you don't.

1883 No Cents 5c.jpg

1883 No Cents 5c 2.jpg

A very nice coin, to bad it is just a bit short of MS. Only $23 to grade is cheap no shipping or insurance or extras to pay ?

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On 2/1/2023 at 1:54 PM, Coinbuf said:

I would not do so on purpose, wasting funds on such an endeavor just means that I have fewer funds to buy coins with.   Coins like this can be safely stored in any number of holders, flips, 2X2's, kointain holders, capital plastic holders, etc...   All at a substantial cost savings over sending a coin to be graded and slabbed.   And to be fair with the popularity of the everyman sets an AU58 coin may have greater desirability to those building those types of registry sets nowdays.   So while you may not make much your AU58 coin could do better financially than you think, maybe.

Now I do have some coins that have lost value due to gradeflation which today would not be worth slabbing, and a few grading whiffs on my part as well, but those situations are different that knowingly slabbing low value coins.

...i dont disagree nor endorse it all comes down to personal choices n desires...i guess it mostly comes down to individually defining what is wasteful n what does true worth mean, probably not the same for each collector, i do understand ur concern bout maintaining ur coin purchasing budget...also to answer the OP's query bout conservation of coins, yes i do avail myself to ngc's conservation program when it is required....

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    It is fallacious to argue that inexpensive--or even quite valuable--coins should be certified by grading services to "conserve" them!   In fact, neither NGC nor PCGS guarantees that coins that they have certified will not deteriorate in their holders!

   The "NGC Guarantee" provides that, "[t]his Guarantee does not apply to certain Coins where the appearance of the Coin changes or deteriorates over time and such change or deterioration is responsible for any discrepancy between the assigned grade and the Coin’s actual grade. . .. In certain Coins, natural environmental deterioration may cause undesired features to appear, such as (but not limited to) spotting, hazing, PVC and corrosion." Moreover, NGC will only guarantee the grade of copper coins for ten years, after which they will be treated as "raw" submissions. See NGC Guarantee | Coin Certification Guarantee | NGC (ngccoin.com) 

     PCGS applies a similar qualification to all coins.  The PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity provides that "[t]he PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion." See PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity - U.S. and World Coins.

  Grading service holders are likely no better than inexpensive, inert plastic holders such as square polystyrene "snap tights", round capsules or even mylar flips for "conserving" coins!  Lucite boards cost more but are more durable than grading service holders and still far less expensive than the cost of certification.  A great deal of air and whatever pollutants were in it when the coin was encapsulated continue to make contact with a certified coin's surface, and the holders aren't guaranteed to be airtight either.  Many coins have toned or otherwise changed over time in grading service holders, usually not for the better.  

  I have stored brilliant uncirculated as well as circulated U.S. coins composed of copper, copper nickel and silver alloys in albums (mostly Whitman Bookshelf and Classic but also Dansco and old Library of Coins) albums for decades, some since the 1970s.  All but a few or the coins have remained relatively unchanged in these albums, perhaps because much less air circulates over the coins' surfaces and edges than in a certified holder.  One must be careful not to touch the coin with bare hands before and during its insertion into the album and to make sure that it is seated below the upper plastic slide to avoid "slide marks".  The aforementioned hard plastic holders are definitely better for silver dollars and other larger coins, in which I have also successfully stored coins for decades. (Storage of coins in a cool, dark and dry space is also important.)  Such storage saves a great deal of space and weight, as well as expense, in comparison to third party grading!

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No. The plastic holders are not sealed or purged of oxygen and water vapor, nor are they filled with an inert gas. Thus, "conservation" is not a realistic reason for spending the money.

Edited by RWB
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On 2/1/2023 at 7:55 AM, J P M said:

A very nice coin, to bad it is just a bit short of MS. Only $23 to grade is cheap no shipping or insurance or extras to pay ?

Well yes of course but I spread that cost out by sending multiple coins per invoice.

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On 2/1/2023 at 1:19 PM, RWB said:

No. The plastic holders are not sealed or purged of oxygen and water vapor, not are they filled with an inert gas. Thus, "conservation" is not a realistic reason for spending the money.

The NGC holder is sonically sealed to keep out moisture, dust, contaminants and all outside oxidizing agents. Yes the air in the slab is trapped but the small amount of air can do little to the coin. Older slabs are not as well sealed. If stored properly NGC holdered coins are stable for years.The holder also conserves the coin from handling contamination, damage and discardment ( being lost or thrown away). 

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On 2/1/2023 at 11:49 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The NGC holder is sonically sealed to keep out moisture, dust, contaminants and all outside oxidizing agents. Yes the air in the slab is trapped but the small amount of air can do little to the coin. Older slabs are not as well sealed. If stored properly NGC holdered coins are stable for years.

  NGC makes no such representation! To the contrary, the "FAQs" for "NGC Labels and Holders" on the NGC website include the following item:

Is the NGC holder airtight or watertight?

 The NGC holder is sealed using ultrasonic welding — a safe, clean and secure process — that helps to protect the coins and reveal attempts at tampering. This process is not designed to create an airtight or watertight seal.  

See NGC Grading FAQs - NGC Labels and Holders | NGC (ngccoin.com)

  The NGC Guarantee specifically excludes from coverage coins in holders that NGC has determined to have been adversely affected by varioujs "improper storage" conditions, including "moisture".

  While grading service holders will protect coins from one's grubby fingers and certain other hazards, so will other much less expensive holders!

 

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On 2/1/2023 at 12:59 PM, Sandon said:

    It is fallacious to argue that inexpensive--or even quite valuable--coins should be certified by grading services to "conserve" them!   In fact, neither NGC nor PCGS guarantees that coins that they have certified will not deteriorate in their holders!

   The "NGC Guarantee" provides that, "[t]his Guarantee does not apply to certain Coins where the appearance of the Coin changes or deteriorates over time and such change or deterioration is responsible for any discrepancy between the assigned grade and the Coin’s actual grade. . .. In certain Coins, natural environmental deterioration may cause undesired features to appear, such as (but not limited to) spotting, hazing, PVC and corrosion." Moreover, NGC will only guarantee the grade of copper coins for ten years, after which they will be treated as "raw" submissions. See NGC Guarantee | Coin Certification Guarantee | NGC (ngccoin.com) 

     PCGS applies a similar qualification to all coins.  The PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity provides that "[t]he PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion." See PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity - U.S. and World Coins.

  Grading service holders are likely no better than inexpensive, inert plastic holders such as square polystyrene "snap tights", round capsules or even mylar flips for "conserving" coins!  Lucite boards cost more but are more durable than grading service holders and still far less expensive than the cost of certification.  A great deal of air and whatever pollutants were in it when the coin was encapsulated continue to make contact with a certified coin's surface, and the holders aren't guaranteed to be airtight either.  Many coins have toned or otherwise changed over time in grading service holders, usually not for the better.  

  I have stored brilliant uncirculated as well as circulated U.S. coins composed of copper, copper nickel and silver alloys in albums (mostly Whitman Bookshelf and Classic but also Dansco and old Library of Coins) albums for decades, some since the 1970s.  All but a few or the coins have remained relatively unchanged in these albums, perhaps because much less air circulates over the coins' surfaces and edges than in a certified holder.  One must be careful not to touch the coin with bare hands before and during its insertion into the album and to make sure that it is seated below the upper plastic slide to avoid "slide marks".  The aforementioned hard plastic holders are definitely better for silver dollars and other larger coins, in which I have also successfully stored coins for decades. (Storage of coins in a cool, dark and dry space is also important.)  Such storage saves a great deal of space and weight, as well as expense, in comparison to third party grading!

Sandon the new style NGC holders are air tight. The disclaimers are there because coins got holdered with the older non sonically sealed slabs and NGC knows contaminantes may already be on the coin which then cause later imperfections. PVC damage would already be on the coin and should be non gradable. Spot hazing or milk spots are from improper mint rinse or planchet flaws which are possible on any silver coin at any moment even new ones no matter where its stored or what its stored in. Color changes are possible but sealed holders prolong this process. If you have corrosion on a holdered coin it isn't being stored properly and /or the holder is older and non airtight.   Finally registering, grading and encapsulating a average coin is a form of conservation. It serves to market legitimize the coin and render it safe from further wear, damage or degradation. 

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On 2/1/2023 at 9:25 PM, Sandon said:

  NGC makes no such representation! To the contrary, the "FAQs" for "NGC Labels and Holders" on the NGC website include the following item:

Is the NGC holder airtight or watertight?

 The NGC holder is sealed using ultrasonic welding — a safe, clean and secure process — that helps to protect the coins and reveal attempts at tampering. This process is not designed to create an airtight or watertight seal.  

See NGC Grading FAQs - NGC Labels and Holders | NGC (ngccoin.com)

  The NGC Guarantee specifically excludes from coverage coins in holders that NGC has determined to have been adversely affected by varioujs "improper storage" conditions, including "moisture".

  While grading service holders will protect coins from one's grubby fingers and certain other hazards, so will other much less expensive holders!

 

Again disclaimers are to cover their butts..the holders are sonically sealed they are AIR TIGHT I've floated them in water for 3 hrs. No moisture intrusion.

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On 2/2/2023 at 12:30 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

.the holders are sonically sealed they are AIR TIGHT I've floated them in water for 3 hrs. No moisture intrusion.

  Your contention is that NGC holders are not only airtight but watertight, notwithstanding NGC's warning that they are not designed to be either!  Just because the NGC holders with which you experimented didn't contain noticeable amounts of water after being improperly floated in it doesn't mean that moisture (humidity) didn't increase in the holders or that the coins they contain won't deteriorate over time as a result! 

 Respectfully, you have presented no factual basis for your contention. You may believe what you wish, but you should not state your opinions as facts! 

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...thread no longer serves any useful purpose, obviously virtually any durable inert holder provides varible degrees of protection, preservation, conservation, presentability whatever u want to call it...if u like them use them if u dont dont, its that simple...everyone should spend their own money as they see fit...

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On 2/1/2023 at 11:49 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The NGC holder is sonically sealed to keep out moisture, dust, contaminants and all outside oxidizing agents. Yes the air in the slab is trapped but the small amount of air can do little to the coin. Older slabs are not as well sealed. If stored properly NGC holdered coins are stable for years.The holder also conserves the coin from handling contamination, damage and discardment ( being lost or thrown away). 

"Sonic sealed" merely means the edge sealing is performed ultrasonically -- it is not a guaranteed hermetic seal.

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On 2/1/2023 at 11:30 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Again disclaimers are to cover their butts..the holders are sonically sealed they are AIR TIGHT I've floated them in water for 3 hrs. No moisture intrusion.

STOP IT, MIKE! No slab is air tight. They never have been and they are not now. You are WRONG! People are artificially toning coins WHILE THEY ARE IN SLABS! You need to catch up. 

Edited by VKurtB
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