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Another Reason To Photograph Your Coins -- Toning, Spotting, & Other Changes
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35 posts in this topic

One of the reasons I've been active on the photo and camera threads and posts the last few days is I just took pictures of ALL my coins so I have a record for my own knowledge (while at a show or LCS)...for insurance purposes....and to catalog how they look.

As it turned out, it also lets you go back and see if the coin has changed.   And unfortunately, one of mine has...:(....it's an 1898 Morgan Silver Dollar MS64 PL.  If you look closely, you can see the dark/black blotch at 9 PM.  It could be toning, but if it is it's monochromatic only and black. 

I'm a bit teed off since I figured a coin that didn't tone or show other blemishes for 120 years was probably safe.  I guess not.  I can't believe I bought it like this but I have to check and see if I took pics of the coin years ago on an older smartphone.

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Edited by GoldFinger1969
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I have NEVER considered ANY slabbed coin to be “safe” from turning. They just simply are not. I have too much direct experience. I don’t know precisely WHAT is doing it, but my suspicion is the inner holder thing inside the hard slab. I KNOW that old small ANACS soap bar holders did that. 

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When photographing anything for record purposes, you must be uniform in all technical respects but especially color balance (18% gray) and neutral background. You are not making "nice pictures," you are recording the object for identification.

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On 1/27/2023 at 11:27 AM, RWB said:

When photographing anything for record purposes, you must be uniform in all technical respects but especially color balance (18% gray) and neutral background. You are not making "nice pictures," you are recording the object for identification.

Roger, I just use default settings on my Galaxy S9. :)

Taking the pictures from about 6" away, it appears the settings for the coins are all or congregate at these settings:  F2.4......1/30th second......4.30 mm....ISO 250....White Balance AUTO.

The F number....shutter speed...and ISO can change slightly depending on gold or silver and how big the coin was and how much I zoomed in.

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On 1/27/2023 at 10:27 AM, RWB said:

When photographing anything for record purposes, you must be uniform in all technical respects but especially color balance (18% gray) and neutral background. You are not making "nice pictures," you are recording the object for identification.

Roger and I agree more fully on the benefits AND shortcomings in coin photography than perhaps any other subtopic. I’d venture to guess that fewer than 5% of coin photographers have the first clue what 18% gray even is! Or if they do, they don’t know how to use it. When I was a Gretag AG mini lab installer, I LIVED with 18% gray, in card form and with negatives exposed with those cards on them. The color balance of each batch of paper had to be reset to create 18% gray. I taught this, err, poop. Coins are shiny. Some things render light, others dark. The lighting decides EVERYTHING. So when you take coin pictures, every exposure needs to be read off an 18% gray card, AND NEVER THE COIN ITSELF, … NEVER! And once you have that exposure setting, DON’T CHANGE IT as long as the camera, lights, and subject spot remain the same. And automatic white balance needs to die a horrible death for coins. Otherwise a green background turns your silver coins pink (magenta), and those tan pages in your Dansco turn your coins too blue. This is serious 💩 here, folks. This is important! You need to neuter ANYTHING AUTOMATIC in your digital camera and take a walk on the fully manual side. Hard to do with ANY phone. You have to dig deep for the right apps. The one that came with it will NEVER do. 

Edited by VKurtB
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slabs are not sealed. Silver tarnishes over time. If a coin you have starts to tarnish or tone in a dark manner then you need to send the slab in and have it preserved and re slabbed.

I have seen some real dark toned morgans that were beautiful when paid the desired price but turned so dark that you could not see the details of the coin. That eventually eats away on the top layer of the coin.

Old school collectors kept their raw coins preserved. Toning was a defect in their hobby collecting. To each his own. Toning is not good for metals. ;)

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On 1/27/2023 at 8:51 PM, Six Mile Rick said:

slabs are not sealed. Silver tarnishes over time. If a coin you have starts to tarnish or tone in a dark manner then you need to send the slab in and have it preserved and re slabbed.

I have seen some real dark toned morgans that were beautiful when paid the desired price but turned so dark that you could not see the details of the coin. That eventually eats away on the top layer of the coin.

Old school collectors kept their raw coins preserved. Toning was a defect in their hobby collecting. To each his own. Toning is not good for metals. ;)

Bravissimo! I don’t agree with much that Six Mile Rick writes, but THIS is right on the button. Right down to the last sentence. To me, toning is a con. Not in the way you think though. People are free to like anything they want to. Toner fans are NOT con men. They are sincere. But that doesn’t change the fact that toner fans are BEING conned. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 1/27/2023 at 9:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Bravissimo! I don’t agree with much that Six Mile Rick writes, but THIS is right on the button. Right down to the last sentence. 

I don't agree with much that you write as well sir. :roflmao:

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On 1/27/2023 at 8:58 PM, Six Mile Rick said:

I don't agree with much that you write as well sir. :roflmao:

I thought you had an inappropriate love affair with a heavily toned coin. I swear I read about you having a ridiculous ASK on it. No?

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On 1/27/2023 at 9:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Roger and I agree more fully on the benefits AND shortcomings in coin photography than perhaps any other subtopic. I’d venture to guess that fewer than 5% of coin photographers have the first clue what 18% gray even is! Or if they do, they don’t know how to use it. When I was a Gretag AG mini lab installer, I LIVED with 18% gray, in card form and with negatives exposed with those cards on them. The color balance of each batch of paper had to be reset to create 18% gray. I taught this, err, poop. Coins are shiny. Some things render light, others dark. The lighting decides EVERYTHING. So when you take coin pictures, every exposure needs to be read off an 18% gray card, AND NEVER THE COIN ITSELF, … NEVER! And once you have that exposure setting, DON’T CHANGE IT as long as the camera, lights, and subject spot remain the same. And automatic white balance needs to die a horrible death for coins. Otherwise a green background turns your silver coins pink (magenta), and those tan pages in your Dansco turn your coins too blue. This is serious 💩 here, folks. This is important! You need to neuter ANYTHING AUTOMATIC in your digital camera and take a walk on the fully manual side. Hard to do with ANY phone. You have to dig deep for the right apps. The one that came with it will NEVER do. 

I have a Galaxy S9...if you want to recommend some settings I'd be happy to give them a shot, but yeah, so far, every picture I've taken aside from a few with the NIGHT (astronomy) and SPORT (fast-moving objects) settings has been with the PHOTO default settings.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 1/27/2023 at 11:07 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have an Galaxy S9...if you want to recommend some settings I'd be happy to give them a shot, but yeah, so far, every picture I've taken aside from a few with the NIGHT (astronomy) and SPORT (fast-moving objects) settings has been with the PHOTO deault settings.

Man, I don’t have anything that isn’t Apple but my wife DOES have an older Galaxy (was the 7 a big seller?) still in the box. I’ll dig it out, charge it up and see what I can see, okay? My best guess is that you might need an app from the Google or Android store, whichever applies. I know Apple has several manual camera apps in its App Store. I use a mirrorless SLR for everything even remotely important, and film when I’m “attempting art”. By the way, even my Sony SLR is not so easy to get into manual mode. So many menus….

Edited by VKurtB
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On 1/28/2023 at 12:10 AM, VKurtB said:

Man, I don’t have anything that isn’t Apple but my wife DOES have an older Galaxy (was the 7 a big seller?) still in the box. I’ll dig it out, charge it up and see what I can see, okay? My best guess is that you might need an app from the Google or Android store, whichever applies. I know Apple has several manual camera apps in its App Store. I use a mirrorless SLR for everything even remotely important, and film when I’m “attempting art”. By the way, even my Sony SLR is not so easy to get into manual mode. So many menus….

Maybe I'll just play around with the settings....might be a "Smartphone Camera Settings for Dummies" thread or forum somewhere. xD

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On 1/27/2023 at 9:07 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have a Galaxy S9...if you want to recommend some settings I'd be happy to give them a shot, but yeah, so far, every picture I've taken aside from a few with the NIGHT (astronomy) and SPORT (fast-moving objects) settings has been with the PHOTO default settings.

Me too.  S9+ and the settings on this phone's camera are pretty freaking impressive. 

Also that black spot is the beginning of a tone, toning, toni toni toni. Its silver with copper it'll happen. To me natural toning doesn't matter as i can look past it but I think the majority doesn't like it. 

With age things get spots. We can't stay pudgy wittle fat babies forever😉😆

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On 1/27/2023 at 10:01 PM, VKurtB said:

I thought you had an inappropriate love affair with a heavily toned coin. I swear I read about you having a ridiculous ASK on it. No?

No. You are wrong. I like my coins preserved. Toning is fine but the ones I send in for grading are preserved as well to slow down any growth. 

 I am old school ;)

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I have watched a lot of coins change in the holder over the years, even with proper storage. Toning can change and spots can grow. It's a good idea to take new images from time to time. As others have said, settings and lighting need to be the same with each new batch. 

I can't do this with a phone but it's pretty easy with a DSLR. For me an 18% gray card is a must. The white balance needs to be the same for each batch of images. Many that get into imaging coins don't understand how important the gray card is. 

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On 2/1/2023 at 8:14 AM, ldhair said:

I have watched a lot of coins change in the holder over the years, even with proper storage. Toning can change and spots can grow.

But nothing for 120 years and then it occupies ~3% of the surface area in just a few years ?  

A modern ASE I could understand, but a 100+ year old Morgan ?

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On 2/1/2023 at 1:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But nothing for 120 years and then it occupies ~3% of the surface area in just a few years ?  

A modern ASE I could understand, but a 100+ year old Morgan ?

Perhaps last year the humidity was higher than years before. The seal of the holder may also have been compromised by time.  It looks like someone was holding the coin by the edge at one time and it just took a long time for it to show up?

Edited by J P M
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Photographs taken of my small gold coin collection have just prevented me from undertaking an awkward email exchange with Sarasota Numismatics.

I was looking at my NGC Registry Coin Photo of my 1914-D Indian $5 NGC MS64+ (CAC), and just for the fun of it I looked up the coin using the Verify NGC Certification.

The coins did not match.  Uh Oh!!!!!  How could this be????

The Coin Verify photo showed the upper-center prong (a tri-prong holder) "just touching" the right side of the "E" in LIBERTY on the left side of the prong, whereas my NGC Registry Photo showed the upper-center prong "just touching" the "E" with the right side of the prong.  The coin is rotated clockwise by more than the width of the prong.

To make matters even more incredulous, both the Verify and the Registry photos show a small fiber to the left of the coin and a slight amount of grit on the lower left prong.

NGC Verify Photo

image.thumb.jpeg.0b4f2da086fd3cfd27972f14eb8ed0cb.jpeg

 

NGC Registry Photo

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The coin has never been out of my possession, and has hardly been moved around during my 8 years of ownership.

Could it have rotated in its holder?  Has it suffered the fate of Death Valley moving rocks?

image.thumb.png.64d2ba291bc6f26c31c30a861cb48762.png

 

After all of my worry, even preparing an email to send to Sarasota Numismatics, I looked for a photo to send them and I came across photos in my Photo Library that they had provided when I first ordered the coin:

image.jpeg.cefcb0a1d65abf76eb7ced0e4f44da55.jpeg

 

… and one I had taken one month after its purchase.

image.thumb.jpeg.12b42d53da6117376fb02038d765af0f.jpeg

My worries are over, the coin is legitimate, has somehow managed to rotate in its holder, and may very well rotate further.

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On 2/1/2023 at 4:43 PM, J P M said:

I recently picked up a coin that was out of rotation in the holder. I shook the holder and it was loose inside . I kept tapping it in the palm of my hand and rotating it and it turned until it was back to normal again ..LoL

Thanks… I'll try that.

Knowing that it has to be coin rotation, I, too, wonder if it is a "rattler."  So, I'll test for that.  See if I can "tap it back."

As I've been going through this winter, I've been noticing a nail at the top of the center hall stairs that has raised up again about 1/8 inch.  Every year I have to hammer it down again.  Maybe my coin's rotation has something to do with temperature, humidity, and possibly the forced hot air/air conditioning system of the house, which cumulatively add routine disturbances that might cause micro-movement of many things within the house.

To be continued…

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On 2/1/2023 at 4:21 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Thanks… I'll try that.

Knowing that it has to be coin rotation, I, too, wonder if it is a "rattler."  So, I'll test for that.  See if I can "tap it back."

As I've been going through this winter, I've been noticing a nail at the top of the center hall stairs that has raised up again about 1/8 inch.  Every year I have to hammer it down again.  Maybe my coin's rotation has something to do with temperature, humidity, and possibly the forced hot air/air conditioning system of the house, which cumulatively add routine disturbances that might cause micro-movement of many things within the house.

To be continued…

Nah, it’s evil spirits. Like cheap vodka. 

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It was so cold yesterday, so decided to look at my Puzzle Box Gold collection in person, which involves hours for me to even gain access to the coins.

Got to my 1914-D coin and played around with it, tapping the holder this way and that.  It's not a "rattler" so nothing budged or rotated.

Now I'm wondering if a gold coin in an NGC holder is more likely to be loose in the holder when the holder/coin is warmer or colder.
 

Have even gotten out my old Tipler Physics book (Fifth Printing, August 1980), page 434, problem 9, which involves an interesting problem:

Temperature:  20º C start

steel tube OD:  3.000 cm
brass tube ID:  2.997 cm

Q.  To what temperature must the tubes be heated if the steel tube is to be inserted into the brass tube?


The "rattler" exercise for me would be to solve the steel/brass problem but use thermal coefficients of linear expansion for gold and plastic.

While I have the collection out, here's a nice pic…

image.thumb.jpeg.f4acfc8f0cd95702e82b8225dcef7640.jpeg

The thin leaves of plastic between the holders are from "sandwich" baggies.  Using a straight edge and X-acto knife, I cut the leaves a little larger than the holders.  The purpose the leaves serve is to prevent holder-nesting chatter marks where they touch on the faces of the adjacent holders.  There's other surrounding wrapping too, involving comic book size Coin Armour Corrosion Intercepts.

Holders still look beautiful — mint condition — after eight years.

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On 2/5/2023 at 5:46 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

He's too "green," and I don't know Dr. Robert Bruce Banner personally.


It’s not easy…

3D2ADC81-C288-4BA0-9254-A91C69712120.jpeg.d6d14ac93235748b442b1e7855897d50.jpeg

Edited by VKurtB
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On 2/5/2023 at 4:41 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

The thin leaves of plastic between the holders are from "sandwich" baggies.

So....your are immersing your slabbed coins in PVC plasticizer? How about trying thin mylar instead?

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