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Do coin exhibit judges deduct for false and erronious information in displays?
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An unexpectedly large proportion of "educational exhibits" I've seen included factual errors and badly outdated information. This includes winners of top awards. Do exhibit judges deduct of this kind of content, or do they ignore accuracy in favor of nice photos and clever content arrangement?

Edited by RWB
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On 1/10/2023 at 9:08 PM, RWB said:

An unexpectedly large proportion of "educational exhibits" I've seen included factual errors and badly outdated information. This includes winners of top awards. Do exhibit judges deduct of this kind of content, or do they ignore accuracy in favor of nice photos and clever content arrangement?

...ever the Mr. Negative...u should try for once to promote the hobby instead of tearing it down...do publishing editors deduct for verbosity n tedium when considering to publish a book?....

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Whoa there!

I have no knowledge to answer the question posed so I can only say what I think.  I have only been to two national level shows, the Fun show both times, and neither time did I have the time to peruse the educational exhibits at length.  I hope they do, but expect that they seldom do as there is so much poorly researched and unsubstantiated data in this hobby that it seems unlikely.

As to first respondent, a little bitter, are we? 

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On 1/11/2023 at 8:25 AM, Moxie15 said:

Whoa there!

I have no knowledge to answer the question posed so I can only say what I think.  I have only been to two national level shows, the Fun show both times, and neither time did I have the time to peruse the educational exhibits at length.  I hope they do, but expect that they seldom do as there is so much poorly researched and unsubstantiated data in this hobby that it seems unlikely.

As to first respondent, a little bitter, are we? 

...not at all, i just call it the way i see it, n take in the track record of the complainant n his personal agenda....

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Zadok has a useful opinion; however, his is the negative one, not mine. I doubt Zadok actually wants to promote bad information.

Perpetuated errors, false information and the like are what holds the hobby down. If the exhibits are truly "educational" they will contain facts and insightful ideas, not regurgitated bologna. That places judges in the nexus of knowledge advancement and educational presentation. Hence, my question.

On 1/10/2023 at 9:14 PM, zadok said:

do publishing editors deduct for verbosity n tedium when considering to publish a book?

Avoiding that is part of an editor's job, and is closely related to the intended audience of the book. Sometimes a perception of "verbosity n tedium" occurs because the reader lacks background to understand the subject, or is better attuned to superficiality, or is possibly impatient, or the author challenges the reader's long-held notions thereby threatening the reader's tiny world-view.

Edited by RWB
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On 1/11/2023 at 11:51 AM, RWB said:

Zadok has a useful opinion; however, his is the negative one, not mine. I doubt Zadok actually wants to promote bad information.

Perpetuated errors, false information and the like are what holds the hobby down. If the exhibits are truly "educational" they will contain facts and insightful ideas, not regurgitated bologna. That places judges in the nexus of knowledge advancement and educational presentation. Hence, my question.

Avoiding that is part of an editor's job, and is closely related to the intended audience of the book. Sometimes a perception of "verbosity n tedium" occurs because the reader lacks background to understand the subject, or is better attuned to superficiality, or is possibly impatient, or the author challenges the reader's long-held notions thereby threatening the reader's tiny world-view.

...oh this reader does not lack background nor understanding of the subject, nor does he feel threatened or challenged by writers that are hardly qualified to speak to what is best for the hobby, he does recognize those that are qualified to discuss regurgitated bologna ad nauseam however....

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I do think it would be interesting to see (or better understand) an exhibit scorecard.  What actually goes into scoring exhibits against each other?  Are there weighted points for accuracy, presentation, completeness, rarity, etc?  These exhibits can have extremely different qualities, so how does a judge compare an apple and an orange sitting side-by-side?

I have never exhibited and will likely never have a collection that warrants such, but I am curious how they are judged.

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On 1/11/2023 at 1:23 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I do think it would be interesting to see (or better understand) an exhibit scorecard.  What actually goes into scoring exhibits against each other?  Are there weighted points for accuracy, presentation, completeness, rarity, etc?  These exhibits can have extremely different qualities, so how does a judge compare an apple and an orange sitting side-by-side?

I have never exhibited and will likely never have a collection that warrants such, but I am curious how they are judged.

...the actual "scorecard" is available online at the ANA website that addresses all ur areas of concern, it was recently updated n vkurt made it available here on this forum not too long ago, i do not recall which thread that was in but i assume its searchable or he could make it available again, the criteria n point allocations r fairly comprehensive n allow for the wide variety of presentations....

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On 1/10/2023 at 8:08 PM, RWB said:

An unexpectedly large proportion of "educational exhibits" I've seen included factual errors and badly outdated information. This includes winners of top awards. Do exhibit judges deduct of this kind of content, or do they ignore accuracy in favor of nice photos and clever content arrangement?

Any inaccurate information is supposed to lower a score, EVEN mere spelling and/or grammatical errors. It is not uncommon to find some, however. 

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On 1/11/2023 at 1:22 PM, zadok said:

...the actual "scorecard" is available online at the ANA website that addresses all ur areas of concern, it was recently updated n vkurt made it available here on this forum not too long ago, i do not recall which thread that was in but i assume its searchable or he could make it available again, the criteria n point allocations r fairly comprehensive n allow for the wide variety of presentations....

Be sure to get the very latest version. It has recently been changed. 

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On 1/11/2023 at 12:23 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I do think it would be interesting to see (or better understand) an exhibit scorecard.  What actually goes into scoring exhibits against each other?  Are there weighted points for accuracy, presentation, completeness, rarity, etc?  These exhibits can have extremely different qualities, so how does a judge compare an apple and an orange sitting side-by-side?

I have never exhibited and will likely never have a collection that warrants such, but I am curious how they are judged.

The scoring sheet and instructions had, until recently, NOT been online. Much kvetching on the part of yours truly was supposed to have changed that. Of course, it DID confirm my frequent narrative that the most important things tend NOT to be online. That’s still true of many other fields of inquiry. 

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On 1/11/2023 at 1:25 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

found the scorecard and posted a link below, thanks.

 

https://www.money.org/uploads/2019 PIT Exhibits Rules.pdf

This is NOT the most recent version. It was changed again in 2022, and likely will be tweaked yet again this year. 

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On 1/10/2023 at 8:08 PM, RWB said:

An unexpectedly large proportion of "educational exhibits" I've seen included factual errors and badly outdated information. This includes winners of top awards. Do exhibit judges deduct of this kind of content, or do they ignore accuracy in favor of nice photos and clever content arrangement?

ROUGHLY SPEAKING, the scores are 1/3 for the material, 1/3 for aesthetic issues, and 1/3 for the information. The idea is to resemble a museum display. Have you been to a major show lately? FUN? I was scheduled to be there but had to be in Alabama for weather related home repairs. 

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The Exhibit Judging rules appear to have just two places where accuracy is relevant:

BASIC NUMISMATIC INFORMATION - 15 points.

The numismatic specifications of the exhibited items should be described to the extent needed by the exhibit’s scope to answer the questions of another numismatist.

Examples: mint and mintage, composition, dimensions, designer, engraver, variety identification.

SPECIAL NUMISMATIC INFORMATION - 15 points.

Enough additional information should be given to answer the questions of a general viewer. Examples: historic, biographic, geographic, economic, artistic, and bibliographic information.

Only the 2nd implies anything more than the superficial. Even there, the word “accuracy” is not mentioned. Is the rule “The less said, the greater the points?”

The comment, “If specific information on any point is needed, standard reference books or recognized experts in attendance at the convention will be consulted,” on Item #17 is nebulous. Is there a list for consultation? Are the materials readily available to judges? Do the judges have to guess?

Our resident exhibit judge might be able to make this clearer.

Edited by RWB
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The less said, the LOWER the points. Those two categories, Basic and Special Numismatic information, comprise 30% of the total score. The three judge panel is REQUIRED to meet in person and confer with each other. Inaccurate info is usually found in that conference. HOWEVER, mere OPINION of an error will seldom carry the day. ALL major reference works are available to ALL judges, and numismatic book dealers for NEW and PAST works almost always cooperate with judging panels. Now, all that said, if THREE judges miss something that is only “known” in “Roger’s Special Private World”, then it’s probably going to be missed. Published works are consulted, but NOT internet discussion boards. Exhibits are supposed to contain a list of cited sources of information. The most stratospheric scores come from NEW research. Note: Ordinals are more important than cardinal scores. It’s okay for a high scoring judge and a low scoring judge, such as myself, to be on a panel as long as the order between judges is consistent. In the “Bad Old Days”, it generally took a score of 90 to compete for higher places. These days, a low 80’s score might well “git er done”, because the scoring has been made tougher. 

Edited by VKurtB
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Thanks! That really helps in understanding the judge's roles.

Would better accuracy be encouraged by calling out this subject on the exhibitor's information package?

If an old and obsolete reference is listed by the exhibitor (such as Taxay's US MInt & Coinage), would that generate a question and markdown?

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On 1/10/2023 at 9:08 PM, RWB said:

Do exhibit judges deduct of this kind of content, or do they ignore accuracy in favor of nice photos and clever content arrangement?

I don't want to see MATERIALLY false information....but a bit of storytelling, properly understood, and so identified, is OK.(thumbsu

Now....for an educational exhibit....since it's not supposed to result in a sale....since you're just educating and not selling a story that goes along with a hot coin.....I think accuracy is prioritized.

Can you give an example of a factually INNACURATE educational display that rubbed you the wrong way ?   The ones I saw at FUN 2020 and a local Barber Coin display in late-2019 were pretty good.

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On 1/11/2023 at 5:01 PM, RWB said:

Thanks! That really helps in understanding the judge's roles.

Would better accuracy be encouraged by calling out this subject on the exhibitor's information package?

If an old and obsolete reference is listed by the exhibitor (such as Taxay's US MInt & Coinage), would that generate a question and markdown?

I don’t think so. In fact, making a note of “widely believed, but wrong” information COMBINED with what is newer and truer would almost certainly be HIGHLY rewarded. Judges get all wobbly kneed for that stuff. If the scores aren’t up at the top, an appeal is in order. It’s really hard to excel at all three major areas - tough to get material, aesthetics, and new information. When we do see it, Best in Show awards tend to happen. My PERSONAL style, when I do exhibit, is to tell a story with a new wrinkle without extremely rare stuff. I like to find a common thread that isn’t immediately obvious until one thinks more deeply. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 1/11/2023 at 8:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can you give an example of a factually INNACURATE educational display that rubbed you the wrong way ?

No. It's not something I keep track of. It just crosses my feeble mind from time to time -- mostly after attending a coin club or show.

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:38 AM, RWB said:

No. It's not something I keep track of. It just crosses my feeble mind from time to time -- mostly after attending a coin club or show.

I think the intentions are good with these displays -- they're not looking to sell something, right ?  Sometimes people use dubious facts or stories in their narratives.

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It would be nice if sponsoring organizations and judges could enter 21st century knowledge sometime before we hit the 22nd century. ;)

If these are real "educational" exhibits, then they should educate using facts not old-tall-tales and internet garbage.

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:35 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think the intentions are good with these displays -- they're not looking to sell something, right ?  Sometimes people use dubious facts or stories in their narratives.

SOMETIMES, not often thankfully, these exhibits coincide with a “Money Talks” presentation in which the owner announces a sale of the material in the exhibit. This constitutes, to me, a breach of ethics, in that it constitutes a potential “pump and dump” operation. It happens from time to time. Not very recently though. 

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On 1/12/2023 at 1:13 PM, VKurtB said:

I FULLY concur about “Internet  garbage”, and I do dock points for exhibit bibliographies that are exclusively internet. The more difficult case is widely published information that has subsequently become suspect (or worse).  “What did the exhibitor know, and when did he know it?” How widely is the newer information known? Is the newer info itself controversial in terms of its veracity? Is it opinion rather than fact? All of this matters. 

...that "how widely is the newer info known" part is fairly important...in some instances the newest info is in club or society newsletters that r not published in other formats nor readily available to the novice exhibitor...in other instances "new info" is only in one published source n as u mention not yet verified or accepted by the numismatic community, therefore still regarded as an "opinion" regardless of an abundance of footnoted sources....

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On 1/12/2023 at 1:38 PM, zadok said:

...that "how widely is the newer info known" part is fairly important...in some instances the newest info is in club or society newsletters that r not published in other formats nor readily available to the novice exhibitor...in other instances "new info" is only in one published source n as u mention not yet verified or accepted by the numismatic community, therefore still regarded as an "opinion" regardless of an abundance of footnoted sources....

You don’t say! Fascinating. Keep in mind another thing. Kids often participate in exhibiting. Another thing - information, even groundbreaking information, is useless without actually having COLLECTED THE ACTUAL PIECES, and having them in your exhibit case. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 1/12/2023 at 7:20 PM, VKurtB said:

You don’t say! Fascinating. Keep in mind another thing. Kids often participate in exhibiting. Another thing - information, even groundbreaking information, is useless without actually having COLLECTED THE ACTUAL PIECES, and having them in your exhibit case. 

...i think thats why they call them exhibits...im gratified that u capitalized the word COLLECTED, after all thats what the hobby is all about in the first place n the glue that holds it all together is the personal face-to-face interaction between dealer n collector , collector n collector, club member n club member, grandpa/ma-father/mother-grandchild as most of us started out....

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