Liberty Head Double Eagles 0

[Timely]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

BTW, Timely, nice-looking coin.  Do you have other Liberty's ?  Saints?

Any good books on the Liberty Heads ?  The only ones I have are the Bowers Red Book and the Liberty Head DE coffee-table book that I am reading now.

I have 22 Liberty’s and 3 Saints. I don’t have any books on them.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:55 PM, Timely said:

I have 22 Liberty’s and 3 Saints. I don’t have any books on them.

Nice !!   Any favorites or special ones among the Liberty's or Saints ? 

My 1923-D is probably my favorite now since it's my highest-graded and most lustrous.

[MorganMan]

In my opinion, both obverses are about equal. But the Liberty Head reverse beats the Saint reverse by a lot!  Much nicer detail.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/23/2023 at 12:55 AM, MorganMan said:

In my opinion, both obverses are about equal. But the Liberty Head reverse beats the Saint reverse by a lot!  Much nicer detail.

I get where you are coming form, but I REALLY love the majestic Eagle in flight on the Saint reverse.

I think there were much worse eagles on other coins going back to the 1800's; didn't TR say that the eagle on the Liberty Head looked like a grilled squab or something like that ? 

Both light-years better than cartoonish-looking eagles from the early-1800's, that's for sure. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Zebo]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I get where you are coming form, but I REALLY love the majestic Eagle in flight on the Saint reverse.

I think there were much worse eagles on other coins going back to the 1800's; didn't TR say that the eagle on the Liberty Head looked like a grilled squab or something like that ? 

Both light-years better than cartoonish-looking eagles from the early-1800's, that's for sure. 

So GF - did you buy the book and if so what did you think of it. ($20 Libs)

[VKurtB]

Wow. There probably isn’t a bigger Teddy Roosevelt fan than me, but his coinage attentions never impressed me much. I know that’s probably a minority opinion. 

[Sandon]

    On the topic of Liberty Head double eagles, did you know that--

1.  The original obverse hub used to make dies for all coins dated from 1850 through 1858 had the "I" in "LIBERTY" corrected from a second "L".  The foot of the erroneous second "L" wasn't completely removed and can be seen on all coins of these dates.

2.  Each of the reverses for the Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3 double eagles is distinctly different from the others in a number of respects apart from the motto "In God We Trust" being added to the Type 2 design and "Twenty D." being changed to "Twenty Dollars" for the Type 3 design.  The relatively simple straight sided shield on the Type 1 was changed on the Type 2 to a more ornate shield similar to that on the Shield nickel.  There were a number of other changes to the ornamentation of the eagle, and the eagle was enlarged, necessitating the use of smaller mint marks. The reverse was again redesigned on the Type 3 to feature a substantial enlargement of the words "E PLURIIBUS UNUM" on the scroll on each side of the eagle and the repositioning of some design elements. There were additional, though relatively minor changes to the reverse design in 1900, most notably that the feather protruding from the back of the eagle's neck was removed, causing the neck to appear smooth. 

3. The Liberty head on the obverse of these coins is essentially a greatly enlarged version of that on the Type 1 gold dollar that was coined from 1849 to 1854.  This head was redesigned for the Type 3 coins.  In addition to the head being repositioned in relation to the stars, Liberty's hair is much more finely engraved.  (The Type 3 designs for both sides were engraved by William Barber, as James B. Longacre, the original designer, had died, as I recall, in 1869.  Longacre's initials "J.B.L." appear on the truncation of Liberty's bust on all three types.)

   If you are fortunate enough to own examples of all three types of these coins, take the time to really look at them!  Nowadays they seem to be valued more for their gold content than their numismatic attributes.

[RWB]

Did you also know that a new pair of hubs for 1877 had a high relief obverse? This created stacking problems and was soon replaced. About 10% of 1877 S DE have a high relief obverse, in spite of Linderman's direct order to melt the coins. I discovered this several years ago fro a combination of documents and coin examination. David McCarthy helped verify this.

Did you know that the reverse IGWT and glory are a single logotype cut by William Key?

Edited January 24, 2023 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:17 AM, VKurtB said:

Wow. There probably isn’t a bigger Teddy Roosevelt fan than me, but his coinage attentions never impressed me much. I know that’s probably a minority opinion. 

If it weren't for him, we wouldn't have the MCMVII UHRs and HRs. 

And probably not the Saint-Gaudens DE, either. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:16 AM, Sandon said:

    On the topic of Liberty Head double eagles, did you know that--

1.  The original obverse hub used to make dies for all coins dated from 1850 through 1858 had the "I" in "LIBERTY" corrected from a second "L".  The foot of the erroneous second "L" wasn't completely removed and can be seen on all coins of these dates.

I didn't know that until reading the Bowers LH DE book a few days ago !!  I couldn't believe it lasted that long....but I looked closely at the pics and it's clearly visible.

Thanks, Sandon ! 

I'm still reading, so I'll make sure to look for your other changes/factoids later on as I read the chapters on Type 2's and Type 3's.  It's one of the few Liberty DE-specific facts that the book deals with, as opposed to the Whitman Red Book on Double Eagles which goes into each yearly mintage.

Come to think about it...I'm not even sure the Bowers DE Red Book went into that "Double L" thing nor the "Broken A crossbar" thing I read about in the LH DE book.  Or if it was there, I forgot about it as it didn't stand out without pictures (the big advantage of the Bowers LH DE book and RWBs SG DE book).

Edited January 24, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:54 AM, RWB said:

Did you also know that a new pair of hubs for 1877 had a high relief obverse? This created stacking problems and was soon replaced. About 10% of 1877 S DE have a high relief obverse, in spite of Linderman's direct order to melt the coins. I discovered this several years ago fro a combination of documents and coin examination. David McCarthy helped verify this.

Wow.....high-relief on 1 side ONLY ?  Did any other coins ever deliberately have high-relief on 1-side only ?

Did you mean "10% of 1877-S DEs" ?  You mean the SanFran mintages ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:16 AM, Sandon said:

If you are fortunate enough to own examples of all three types of these coins, take the time to really look at them!  Nowadays they seem to be valued more for their gold content than their numismatic attributes.

I think in coin books it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an appendix listing the major changes and when they took place over a coin type's lifetime.  Easier to focus on and remember, especially for non-experts. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:55 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If it weren't for him, we wouldn't have the MCMVII UHRs and HRs. 

And probably not the Saint-Gaudens DE, either. 

My point exactly. I’m not a fan. 

[VKurtB]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:03 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think in coin books it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an appendix listing the major changes and when they took place over a coin type's lifetime.  Easier to focus on and remember, especially for non-experts. 

YIKES! Even the changes on the lowly Lincoln cent have been numerous. 

[RWB]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you mean "10% of 1877-S DEs" ?  You mean the SanFran mintages ?

Yes. Barber cut a lower relief obverse after being chewed out by Linderman and Pollock. This was used after early 1877. (According to Linderman, Barber failed to get the Boss' approval to use the new hub.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:07 PM, RWB said:

Yes. Barber cut a lower relief obverse after being chewed out by Linderman and Pollock. This was used after early 1877. (According to Linderman, Barber failed to get the Boss' approval to use the new hub.)

Why is stacking so critical ?  If you high-relief on 1 side, that's just as bad as doing it on 2 sides for stacking purposes, right ?

[zadok]

On 1/25/2023 at 2:28 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why is stacking so critical ?  If you high-relief on 1 side, that's just as bad as doing it on 2 sides for stacking purposes, right ?

...because when ur drinking ur scotch n smoking ur stogie at 3:00am n stacking all ur gold double eagles they fall over n u have to start all over again....

[RWB]

On 1/25/2023 at 2:28 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why is stacking so critical ?  If you high-relief on 1 side, that's just as bad as doing it on 2 sides for stacking purposes, right ?

When stacked with obv-facing-obv the pile wobbled because the central portrait was higher than the rim.

Also, people who handled coin depended on stacks of uniform height to count coins. Any differences in thickness between individual mint products or issues created problems and slowed counting. (Until the 1890s the US MInts used counting boards based on coin height to count coins for bagging.

[VKurtB]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:01 AM, RWB said:

When stacked with obv-facing-obv the pile wobbled because the central portrait was higher than the rim.

Also, people who handled coin depended on stacks of uniform height to count coins. Any differences in thickness between individual mint products or issues created problems and slowed counting. (Until the 1890s the US MInts used counting boards based on coin height to count coins for bagging.

And bank branches still do. 

[RWB]

Yep. Bank tellers use stacks and little plastic trays with interval markings to count their coin cash.

[olympicsos]

I'd say the Liberty Head $20 is the best Longacre Design IMO. Much better than the Indian Head Cent. But the Saints are still a very attractive design. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:42 AM, olympicsos said:

I'd say the Liberty Head $20 is the best Longacre Design IMO. Much better than the Indian Head Cent. But the Saints are still a very attractive design. 

The simplicity of the Liberty Head obverse can grow on you after time.  And the proofs for the LH DE blow away the "proofs" for the Saint-Gaudens DEs. 

[zadok]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The simplicity of the Liberty Head obverse can grow on you after time.  And the proofs for the LH DE blow away the "proofs" for the Saint-Gaudens DEs. 

...looks too much like the morgan dollar...in my own personal opinion, n just that, the only truly classical looking US gold coins besides some of the patterns r the ST G $10 , the $3 princess n the the 1916 gold re-issues, buff, merc, liberty...rest of our gold designs pedestrian compared to many of the other world gold issues....

[World Colonial]

On 1/27/2023 at 11:47 AM, zadok said:

...looks too much like the morgan dollar...in my own personal opinion, n just that, the only truly classical looking US gold coins besides some of the patterns r the ST G $10 , the $3 princess n the the 1916 gold re-issues, buff, merc, liberty...rest of our gold designs pedestrian compared to many of the other world gold issues....

Pretty much agree with your assessment.  I've always liked the Capped Head (1813-1834) half eagle type, but that's because of the 1822 when I was young.  It's actually not an attractive design.  The Turban Head (similar to the silver), somewhat better.  The earliest design obverses are actually awful, though all mediocre designs look a lot better in higher quality.

It's outside of my budget, but I don't really care for most world portrait gold coinage either, or the renditions of Liberty on Latin American coinage.

[World Colonial]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The simplicity of the Liberty Head obverse can grow on you after time.  And the proofs for the LH DE blow away the "proofs" for the Saint-Gaudens DEs. 

I don't recall seeing a matte proof in person but hold the same opinion.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/27/2023 at 11:47 AM, zadok said:

...looks too much like the morgan dollar...in my own personal opinion,

You're not wrong. 

[olympicsos]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The simplicity of the Liberty Head obverse can grow on you after time.  And the proofs for the LH DE blow away the "proofs" for the Saint-Gaudens DEs. 

Because lets face it, Saint Gaudens designs weren't designed to be made as a mirror finish proof. They look good in a satin finish or regular uncirculated finish. The Saint Gaudens obverse is used on the AGE's and something is off about the mirror finish proof with them. But the Liberty Head Double Eagle looks nice in mirror finish proof and would probably be a better fit for the low relief striking common today. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:40 AM, olympicsos said:

Because lets face it, Saint Gaudens designs weren't designed to be made as a mirror finish proof. They look good in a satin finish or regular uncirculated finish. The Saint Gaudens obverse is used on the AGE's and something is off about the mirror finish proof with them. But the Liberty Head Double Eagle looks nice in mirror finish proof and would probably be a better fit for the low relief striking common today. 

Roger says the basined dies used on the LH DEs give them that reflective look.  Plus you simply have a cluttered field on the Saint-Gaudens that didn't allow for mirror proofs at the time with their technology.  Today, with the AGE, at least you do have a very nice blackened mirror look esp. with the proofs like this:

Edited January 28, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[olympicsos]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:37 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger says the basined dies used on the LH DEs give them that reflective look.  Plus you simply have a cluttered field on the Saint-Gaudens that didn't allow for mirror proofs at the time with their technology.  Today, with the AGE, at least you do have a very nice blackened mirror look esp. with the proofs like this:

Still isn't something the artist would likely support. On a side note I also wonder how many of the Saint Gaudens original plasters, hubs, dies etc. for the high relief coins were destroyed in 1910? Which assets did they use to create the 2009 UHR and the "refreshed" obverse on the 2021 and later AGE? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:51 AM, olympicsos said:

Still isn't something the artist would likely support. On a side note I also wonder how many of the Saint Gaudens original plasters, hubs, dies etc. for the high relief coins were destroyed in 1910? Which assets did they use to create the 2009 UHR and the "refreshed" obverse on the 2021 and later AGE? 

I think Roger covers some of that in the Saints book and also his RoAC series.

I don't know if plasters or hubs or dies survived....but patterns certainly did.