Liberty Head Double Eagles 0

[olympicsos]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The simplicity of the Liberty Head obverse can grow on you after time.  And the proofs for the LH DE blow away the "proofs" for the Saint-Gaudens DEs. 

But I will also say that in terms of the pre-Renaissance coinage designs, the Draped Bust is the most artistic of all of them. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/8/2023 at 6:20 AM, olympicsos said:

But I will also say that in terms of the pre-Renaissance coinage designs, the Draped Bust is the most artistic of all of them. 

What about it really appeals to you ?  I think the obverse has its plusses but the reverse eagle is kind of blah.  

I think the Liberty Head DE has a blah reverse and a nice clean powerful obverse.  I think the Saint-Gaudens has two powerful sides, with Liberty striding on the obverse and the eagle in flight on the reverse.

Come to think about it....the Saint eagle could be the 1st eagle that really was powerful and looked intimidating and impressive.  TR had complained specifically about the birds on many of our coins.

Edited February 10, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[olympicsos]

On 2/11/2023 at 2:26 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What about it really appeals to you ?  I think the obverse has its plusses but the reverse eagle is kind of blah.  

I think the Liberty Head DE has a blah reverse and a nice clean powerful obverse.  I think the Saint-Gaudens has two powerful sides, with Liberty striding on the obverse and the eagle in flight on the reverse.

Come to think about it....the Saint eagle could be the 1st eagle that really was powerful and looked intimidating and impressive.  TR had complained specifically about the birds on many of our coins.

The obverse bust is very attractive. The obverse carries the coins with them. Yes the reverse is kind of blah, but I’d say that’s a positive. It’s not like the capped bust or seated Liberty was any better. It makes it the perfect classic design they could’ve had as the obverse on the ASE and AGE. Pairing Weinman with a new design and pairing St. Gaudens with a new design somehow ruins the ASE and AGE. The draped bust had a reverse that’s kind of blah and didn’t have inscriptions like In God We Trust that are mandated today which makes it the perfect classical liberty to co-opt for a modern bullion coin as it’s a beautiful rendition of Liberty that can be improved upon. Especially with the primitive technology the draped bust coins were made to begin with. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by olympicsos

[World Colonial]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What about it really appeals to you ?  I think the obverse has its plusses but the reverse eagle is kind of blah.  

For US collectors, it's often the appeal of coins (in the Red Book) they couldn't afford as a YN.  You didn't collect at that age, so it doesn't have the same appeal to you.  I used to see some of these coins (not just this design) at one of my local dealers (World Numismatics in Atlanta) but of course never had the money.

I have some nostalgia for this type of coin and the money for most of these individually now, but not enough to actually go out and buy it over my primary collection.

Many coins have mediocre to bad designs, but still look much better in pristine condition.  Even the FDR dime, which I think has an awful design, looks decent as a gem BU.

[olympicsos]

But I will say the one good gold coin design that was completely ruined for no reason was the Indian head $10. It’s a very simple clean design that has lots of potential. The headdress just kills what is otherwise a beautiful design. Not only that, that design would have a lot of political controversy today. I would love to see a Saint Gaudens Liberty Head $10 with no headdress. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:00 AM, olympicsos said:

But I will say the one good gold coin design that was completely ruined for no reason was the Indian head $10. It’s a very simple clean design that has lots of potential. The headdress just kills what is otherwise a beautiful design. Not only that, that design would have a lot of political controversy today. I would love to see a Saint Gaudens Liberty Head $10 with no headdress. 

Same portrait, just without the headdress ? 

I believe there was another design with a crown of flowers; don't think they made a pattern of that just a plaster mold or some drawings. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Just Bob]

On 2/10/2023 at 5:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

 

Come to think about it....the Saint eagle could be the 1st eagle that really was powerful and looked intimidating and impressive.  

In my opinion, that honor goes to to eagle on the reverse of the twenty cent piece.

[RWB]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Same portrait, just without the headdress ? 

I believe there was another design with a crown of flowers; don't think they made a pattern of that just a plaster mold or some drawings. 

You are likely referring to the original cent design submitted by S-G. This is actually the Nike Erini bust whose last variation was the Peace dollar.

[GoldFinger1969]

Rusty Go wrote a very long, expensive 3-piece set entitled "The Confident Carson City Coin Collector."  I never heard of these books or the author until a few weeks ago.

Anybody familiar with the author or the books ?  2,500 total pages....yet I rarely see him mentioned in any Liberty Head DE or Carson City talk.

QDB had some nice praise for the 3-volume set.

Edited May 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 5/21/2023 at 1:17 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Rusty Go wrote a very long, expensive 3-piece set entitled "The Confident Carson City Coin Collector."  I never heard of these books or the author until a few weeks ago.

Anybody familiar with the author or the books ?  2,500 total pages....yet I rarely see him mentioned in any Liberty Head DE or Carson City talk.

QDB had some nice praise for the 3-volume set.

...yes i am familiar, he is a member of the LSCC n attends most annual meetings, reasonably certain he will be at the 50th anniversary meeting this year in Pitts, stop by n i will introduce u n he would prob spare a few minutes to discuss his books....

[Zebo]

Looks like a must have if you are a CC collector.

[GoldFinger1969]

1870-CC Liberty Head DE:  Been doing some reading on this special, first-issue Carson City coin.  The entire CC pedigree reemains hot and I thought these comments would be of interest from HA.  Note the prices mentioned throughout the decades:

 

The 1870-CC in Later Years
Numismatic interest in large denomination gold coins was slow to develop before the Gold Recall of 1933 made private ownership of gold illegal in the United States, outside of a few exceptions for things like jewelry and collectibles. An early auction appearance of the 1870-CC double eagle was lot 688 of the Charles W. Cowell Collection (B. Max Mehl, 11/1911), where the cataloger noted, "1870 First $20.00 gold piece of this mint. Fine. Rare." The lot realized only $24.50. a typical price for that era.

By the mid-1930s, savvy investors, like Louis E. Eliasberg and Dr. Charles W. Green, realized that collecting double eagles was one of the few legal avenues for American citizens to invest in gold in any large quantity. The Standard Catalogue of United States Coins listed the price of the 1870-CC at $50 in 1936, inline with most other branch mint Liberty double eagles, but the 1870-CC soon began to distance itself from the pack. By the late 1940s, the 1870-CC was bringing $250 to $300 whenever a specimen was offered. Prices continued to skyrocket in the following decades, and the 1870-CC outperformed many other famous rarities over the years. Among regular-issue Liberty double eagles, only eight issues have a smaller mintage than the 1870-CC: the 1854-O, 1856-O, 1879-O, 1881, 1882, 1886, and 1891. Despite their minuscule production totals and well-deserved reputations in the numismatic community, only the 1854-O and 1856-O have realized prices that kept pace with those brought by the 1870-CC. The 1870-CC has truly been a trendsetter for high prices realized in the Liberty double eagle series over the last eighty years.

Rusty Goe notes there was a minor correction in prices realized for the 1870-CC during the recent Great Recession, but he believed that trend was reversing at the time he wrote his book:

"In sum, over the past three decades (as of late 2018), prices for 1870-CC $20 gold pieces have rocketed to previously unfathomable levels. The trajectory path seemed to be headed straight to the moon at one point. During the Great Recession years (2008-2014), a mild correction occurred in the 1870-CC double eagle market which halted momentum and actually caused a decline in prices. As of this writing it appears as if a rebound of sorts is brewing."

Recent auction results confirm Rusty's suspicion that the correction in prices for the 1870-CC is over, as the AU53 example in lot 3699 of the November Signature (Heritage, 11/2021) realized a staggering record price of $1.62 million. To further confirm the upward trend, an XF45 PCGS specimen, with a green CAC sticker, brought the second-highest price ever realized of $810,000 when it was sold in a Stack's auction in April 2022. It does seem that the sky is the limit for the 1870-CC in the current market."
 

[EarlyUS.com]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nice !!   Any favorites or special ones among the Liberty's or Saints ? 

My 1923-D is probably my favorite now since it's my highest-graded and most lustrous.

I took iPhotos of this PCGS MS-67 recently:

Edited May 22, 2023 by EarlyUS.com

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2023 at 10:55 AM, EarlyUS.com said:

I took iPhotos of this PCGS MS-67 recently:

Probably better to discuss in the RWB Saints DE Book Thread, but whatever, we're here. 

That coin got a 67 ?  I'm surprised a bit with the die crack so prominent.  Could be it's not affecting their grading but I thought cracks and breaks and collapses did detract from the final grade.  Still a very nice 1923-D.

Your coin ?

[zadok]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Probably better to discuss in the RWB Saints DE Book Thread, but whatever, we're here. 

That coin got a 67 ?  I'm surprised a bit with the die crack so prominent.  Could be it's not affecting their grading but I thought cracks and breaks and collapses did detract from the final grade.  Still a very nice 1923-D.

Your coin ?

...die cracks almost never diminish grading....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2023 at 3:25 PM, zadok said:

...die cracks almost never diminish grading....

Yup, in re-reading some sections from Roger's book, confirmed.  I stand corrected -- thanks Z !! 

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting observation from Doug Winter:  "Collectors are wary of buying big ticket coins such as 1866-S No Motto double eagles in higher grades due to Stack’s Bowers’ continued refusal to release information about quantities of coins in the Fairmont Hoard."

The folks who buy coins in the $15,000 - $150,000 range are price-sensitive and savvy.  They aren't billionaires who don't care if they overpay by $20,000 or more.  These buyers have money, but they don't want to shell out $75,000 for a Double Eagle and then have mini-hoards leak out and it's worth $55,000 a year or two later in an otherwise flattish market.

It's fascinating how the lack of details about a hoard or more supply beyond that hoard is impacting sales and prices.

[zadok]

On 5/24/2023 at 3:01 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting observation from Doug Winter:  "Collectors are wary of buying big ticket coins such as 1866-S No Motto double eagles in higher grades due to Stack’s Bowers’ continued refusal to release information about quantities of coins in the Fairmont Hoard."

The folks who buy coins in the $15,000 - $150,000 range are price-sensitive and savvy.  They aren't billionaires who don't care if they overpay by $20,000 or more.  These buyers have money, but they don't want to shell out $75,000 for a Double Eagle and then have mini-hoards leak out and it's worth $55,000 a year or two later in an otherwise flattish market.

It's fascinating how the lack of details about a hoard or more supply beyond that hoard is impacting sales and prices.

...that's more or less the way it should be, collectors should always consider whats now n what could be...DEs r a prime area to misjudge supply n demand, even in the more obscure areas like seated material occasionally a couple of rolls of mint state coins show up n prices flip-flop...but if u r buying a 1802 half dime there's not much chance a hoard is going to show up...u will notice i addressed collectors n not investors or speculators, slightly diff ballgame there principles same but goals bit diff....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:17 AM, zadok said:

...that's more or less the way it should be, collectors should always consider whats now n what could be...DEs r a prime area to misjudge supply n demand, even in the more obscure areas like seated material occasionally a couple of rolls of mint state coins show up n prices flip-flop...but if u r buying a 1802 half dime there's not much chance a hoard is going to show up...u will notice i addressed collectors n not investors or speculators, slightly diff ballgame there principles same but goals bit diff....

The Fairmont and other "hoards" from Europe seem to have just drip-drip-dripped out the last few years.  If you're a buyer or dealer, it's like you have no idea where the end is -- like a 300-car train that won't end at a crossing.

At least with the 1908 NM Saint (1999) and 1983 El Salvador hoards they got them all out and cleared the market.  With the internet today, it seems finders of hoards are petrified of price discovery.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The Fairmont and other "hoards" from Europe seem to have just drip-drip-dripped out the last few years.  If you're a buyer or dealer, it's like you have no idea where the end is -- like a 300-car train that won't end at a crossing.

At least with the 1908 NM Saint (1999) and 1983 El Salvador hoards they got them all out and cleared the market.  With the internet today, it seems finders of hoards are petrified of price discovery.

 

...the fairmont hoard has been piecemealed out by design for a couple of reasons, mostly monetary...the finders today r usually big money finders n collector interests r low on their lists of priorities...even small hoards r usually offered to dealers before they ever hit the collector market... the redfield hoard was a prime example of this pattern n that was decades ago...there r other date specific hoards; 1856 flying eagle cents, 1842-0 SD half dollars, 1870-CC coinage to name just a few (i wont go into specifics on this forum)...that met similar fates, its bout supply n demand n u never over supply the demand....

[zadok]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:43 AM, zadok said:

...the fairmont hoard has been piecemealed out by design for a couple of reasons, mostly monetary...the finders today r usually big money finders n collector interests r low on their lists of priorities...even small hoards r usually offered to dealers before they ever hit the collector market... the redfield hoard was a prime example of this pattern n that was decades ago...there r other date specific hoards; 1856 flying eagle cents, 1842-0 SD half dollars, 1870-CC coinage to name just a few (i wont go into specifics on this forum)...that met similar fates, its bout supply n demand n u never over supply the demand....

...early 20th century gold is replete with examples as well, literally rolls n bags have trickled unto the market over the years....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:43 AM, zadok said:

...the fairmont hoard has been piecemealed out by design for a couple of reasons, mostly monetary...the finders today r usually big money finders n collector interests r low on their lists of priorities...even small hoards r usually offered to dealers before they ever hit the collector market... the redfield hoard was a prime example of this pattern n that was decades ago...there r other date specific hoards; 1856 flying eagle cents, 1842-0 SD half dollars, 1870-CC coinage to name just a few (i wont go into specifics on this forum)...that met similar fates, its bout supply n demand n u never over supply the demand....

But the Redfield Hoard was bought all at once....it was public as to how many coins were out there...and then they hit the market.....no secrecy...no guessing for months or years about how many Morgans there were.....market absorbed the coins fine (rising silver price helped a ton).

[zadok]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:14 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But the Redfield Hoard was bought all at once....it was public as to how many coins were out there...and then they hit the market.....no secrecy...no guessing for months or years about how many Morgans there were.....market absorbed the coins fine (rising silver price helped a ton).

bought at once, dispersed over time, certain dates incrementally...redfield was purchased by a consortium of dealers n divided up as to marketing...they did make known the dates involved n later on the numbers of each, there was some market distortion due to several bags of previously thought unavailable mint state coins, it took the market somewhile to learn of the actual numbers n this did affect prices n some dollars which had sold at great premiums were drastically reduced in value...the real crux became just what grades were the dollars?...big impact n this was not known for some while, adding to the confusion most of the dollars were encapsulated in paramount redfield holders which still float around the market in listed grades well above their true grades, this is readily evident if u look at many of the paramount holdered coins that have been submitted for current tpg grading....

 

FYI...if u havent u should read the write up of lot #2095 in SB upcoming rarities night auction, 1908 saint in ms68, im sure u will find of interest...WFH coin...also not released all at one time....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:27 PM, zadok said:

bought at once, dispersed over time, certain dates incrementally...redfield was purchased by a consortium of dealers n divided up as to marketing...

I thought it was 1 firm ?  I even have the 1977 news article announcing the winner....I think they beat out Bowers & Merena.

On 5/25/2023 at 12:27 PM, zadok said:

most of the dollars were encapsulated in paramount redfield holders which still float around the market in listed grades well above their true grades, this is readily evident if u look at many of the paramount holdered coins that have been submitted for current tpg grading....

So even by 1970's standards they were not undergraded like all the auctions I read about ?  Very interesting, thanks for the info Z. 

I will check out StacksBowers, thanks for the heads-up, Z !   

[zadok]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:59 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I thought it was 1 firm ?  I even have the 1977 news article announcing the winner....I think they beat out Bowers & Merena.

So even by 1970's standards they were not undergraded like all the auctions I read about ?  Very interesting, thanks for the info Z. 

I will check out StacksBowers, thanks for the heads-up, Z !   

...yes one bidder won but the money was pooled from info i had at the time...in my opinion, the coins were overgraded then n now if u go by the grades on the paramount holders, fyi the coins came in both black n red holders with the paramount inscription, there r some holders both red n black that do not have the redfield designation n i assume were other dollars in paramounts inventory that they chose to divest from n used the same holders to sort of coattail on the redfield frenzy...these dollars still bring a significant premium to the coins actual worth...there was a list published that gave a break down of each date from the hoard n the number of bags n partial bags, the list gives a very generalized description of the grades found by date...my initial impression at the time was that paramount chose to grade the coins on their "flashyness" rather than technical grading, just my opinion....

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 :

Re:  The Confident Carson City Coin Collector - Three-Volume (2,500 pp.) Book Set, by Rusty Goe.

$629.99 - Amazon

$299.00 - Southgate Coins

$269. + $9.95 delivery - Wizard Coin Supply.

(Refs: ordering details on Google)

[GoldFinger1969]

DOUBLE EAGLE USAGE ON WEST COAST, 1860s-1870's:   Bowers documents in the LH DE book that the use of gold coins -- especially Liberty Head Double Eagles -- was VERY prounced in the 1860's (and probably later) on the West Coast.  Banks had tons of Liberty DEs and sometimes very little in paper currency.  The San Fran Mint was much busier than the other mints combined, certainly the Philly Mint solo, and virtually all of their strikings was on gold coinage with a focus on DEs.

Very interesting....I'm still in the 1860's chapters but I suspect this usage starts to decline a few years after the Civil War and as we approach 1880.  But this wasn't merely anectdotal talk from 1 or 2 banks....written in books and journals...and the mintage figures from San Francisco back it up.

Edited June 1, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/25/2022 at 12:49 PM, zadok said:

...if those numbers were accurate in 2004 then they r still accurate...i guess the only question is..."is there more relevant info available now to make a better assessment?"....

I guess I can add the NGC and PCGS totals.....subtract a double-count figure....and that total should be more accurate than what Bowers gave in 2004.

Lots of LH DEs from Europe in recent years, esp. CC's, have increased the pop numbers. 

[World Colonial]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

With the internet today, it seems finders of hoards are petrified of price discovery.

 

The overwhelming majority of coins are common or very common.  This includes US "key dates" and supposedly ""low mintage" coins.  "Low mintage" is almost always only low relatively, not actually low, not when the survival rate is "noticeable".

Very few coins have a high enough collector (as opposed to financially motivated buyer) preference to support "high" prices with a "noticeable" supply increase.

Look at the most widely collected US 20th century key dates.  There are in the vicinity of a dozen.  It varies by coin and specific quality but generically, the only reason these coins sell for current and prior prices is due to a reputational scarcity, the perception of scarcity and not an actual one since these coins can be bought in practically any grade in multiple any day of the week.  The buyers are mostly willing to pay the current market price under the assumption they can get most of their money back at resale, not because they actually like the coins that much.  This is an inference but an obvious one, for any coin of "meaningful" value that can be bought on demand.

Someone can also make the same claim for ancients with known hoards (like the Julius Caesar portrait with the Elephant reverse), except that it's my assumption that it actually has a noticeably higher collector preference due to a "history" affinity.  These coins are certainly a lot more common than those I collect but demand trumps scarcity every time.

[Sandon]

   I recently had three of my four Liberty head double eagles, one of each type, graded by NGC for inclusion in my type registry sets. I purchased these coins between 1987 and 1995 for mid-three figure prices, as this was before the price of gold made these relatively common coins too expensive to collect. 

Type One--1863-S, NGC graded AU 53. Bowers & Merena had graded it XF 45 in 1995:

Type 2--1876, NGC graded AU 58 despite extensive bagmarks:

Type 3--1899, NGC graded AU 55, with cleaner surfaces than the preceding two coins:

   Note the design differences among the three types that I discussed in my January 24th post on this topic.

   My only other Liberty head double eagle is an 1897-S that would likely grade higher than the 1899 but is in a lucite framed gold type set that I don't want to break up.