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Liberty Head Double Eagles
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132 posts in this topic

Thought we could use a thread on Liberty Head Double Eagles.  Definitely fewer collectors of this older type of DE compared to Saint-Gaudens but as I've hit most of the research and writings on DEs, I have segued into the Liberty Heads.

Don't own any (yet) but hope to.  The Carson City's are super-tough to find and very expensive.

If anybody knows of a total surivorship source for the coins in total, please post it.  I think I have only seen Bower's 2004 Red Book estimates and you'd think there's something more up-to-date.

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On 12/25/2022 at 12:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thought we could use a thread on Liberty Head Double Eagles.  Definitely fewer collectors of this older type of DE compared to Saint-Gaudens but as I've hit most of the research and writings on DEs, I have segued into the Liberty Heads.

Don't own any (yet) but hope to.  The Carson City's are super-tough to find and very expensive.

If anybody knows of a total surivorship source for the coins in total, please post it.  I think I have only seen Bower's 2004 Red Book estimates and you'd think there's something more up-to-date.

...if those numbers were accurate in 2004 then they r still accurate...i guess the only question is..."is there more relevant info available now to make a better assessment?"....

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Like Silver Dollars many if not most survive from hoards. Most other dates are very expensive and are not often seen in mint state. I've alwways wanted to own a few but could never justify the base cost.

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Most were melted in commercial export use. That creates a series of possible varieties with many gaps and highly irregular availability. For some years/mints, and EF might be the best coin known.

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On 12/25/2022 at 3:22 PM, VKurtB said:

Are you certain of this?

Pretty sure....Saints better known....see lots more supply at LCS and coin shows and on-line....anecdotal commentary from various sources says Saint-Gaudens collectors outnumber LH DE collectors since so many LH DE's are virtually unobtainable in MS and super-expensive for various years/mints.

Key is at what numerical level are the Type Collectors (the middle group) satiated....Registry Collectors for each super-competitive....it's the Investor Collectors who go for coins like the 1904 Liberty DE and 1924 Saint DE that will tell you how many serious collectors (non-bullion) there are.

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On 12/25/2022 at 6:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Pretty sure....Saints better known....see lots more supply at LCS and coin shows and on-line....anecdotal commentary from various sources says Saint-Gaudens collectors outnumber LH DE collectors since so many LH DE's are virtually unobtainable in MS and super-expensive for various years/mints.

Key is at what numerical level are the Type Collectors (the middle group) satiated....Registry Collectors for each super-competitive....it's the Investor Collectors who go for coins like the 1904 Liberty DE and 1924 Saint DE that will tell you how many serious collectors (non-bullion) there are.

I think you are right for the series as a whole.

My guess is that many collectors may limit it to Type 3 as it's a lot more feasible.

Edit:  Actually, looking at the population reports, Type 2s might be easier.  The 70-CC looks to be the only one to be very scarce while there are more dates for Type 3s.

Edited by World Colonial
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LIBERTY DOUBLE EAGLE BASICS:  Just under 103 MM Liberty DEs were struck (102,801,420) with 142 different years and mint marks.   This compares to 53 varieties for the Saint-Gaudens series (including the MCMVII UHR and 1933 but not the 1909/08 overdate) which had just over 70 MM coins struck.

Saints were struck for 26 years (but off for WW I); Liberty's for 58 years. :o

I believe the surviving coins for Saints was just over 3.7 MM (I'm travelling, so don't have my trusty RWB Saints bible with me if I'm off on the Saint numbers xD ).   Here's where it gets interesting.....for survivors, if you use Bower's upper-end of his estimate for total Field Population (which dwarfed the numbers for Certified in his 2004 book), you have over 5 million Liberty Double Eagles in AU and lower grades (5,153,067) and just over 1 million in Mint State (1,156,564).

If you go by the latest population census by PCGS and NGC....you have 755,082 and 772,203 grading events respectively (total = 1,527,285).....estimate out the resubmissions from NGC holders at 40% and you have 1,218,404.

Net-Net:  Lots of Liberty DEs graded and probably many more out there.  If I had the time, a good experiment would be to add up Bower's Field Population for the Saint-Gaudens in his 2004 book....compare it to the PCGS/NGC Certified Population in 2004 at that time.....THEN....compare those to the actual Certified Population in 2022.  That would give you an indication of how many more actual verified graded events have transpired in 18 years for the Saints and see if directionally it's similar for Liberty DEs.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 12/26/2022 at 10:13 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you go by the latest population census by PCGS and NGC....you have 755,082 and 772,203 grading events respectively (total = 1,527,285).....estimate out the resubmissions from NGC holders at 40% and you have 1,218,404.

Not sure about 40%, maybe.  Population counts are overly concentrated in a relatively low number of dates where it's marginal to resubmit.  1904 alone accounts for an outsized proportion.  I doubt very many there.

On 12/26/2022 at 10:13 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Net-Net:  Lots of Liberty DEs graded and probably many more out there.  

I'm confident you are right here.

The more common dates are so common, the accuracy of the population counts doesn't really matter.  It matters to the "key" and "semi-key" dates, even though most of these shouldn't be that hard to buy either.  Once a population gets around 100 for a coin in this price range, it's more about having the money and whether the buyer can find one meeting their narrow criteria.

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The mischievous part of me says, "Aw pipe down with all this talk of survivors!"  Then again, and there are enough collectors to remember this, an 1849 "proof" was produced encapsulated in a [sufficient] presentation case which could be yours unless you don't like  shiny 24-karat gilt gold and the description, "replica archival edition" emblazoned across the slab.

These were lovingly banged out about 20 years ago by some historical "society" nobody ever heard of in an edition of 9,999.  Hey, who knows, if you "mint" 10,000, maybe you had to submit one of those pesky special forms to the U.S. Treasury.

Anyway, if you absolutely, positively must have one of these things, the ads are still being run. Who knows, maybe you can be the first on your block to own one.  Less than a hundred dollars.  [It's copper, but you'd never know it--unless you drop it.]  :whatthe::roflmao:

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On 12/29/2022 at 9:49 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Has anybody bought any of the Michael Fuljenz Double Eagle books from the late-1990's or early-2000's ?

Wondering if they have still-useful information or are outdated.

There’s a 2015 edition (2nd) I believe that can be picked up for about $10. Why not give it a shot.

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Came Across An Interesting (and confusing) Section in the Liberty Head DE book.....it appears, at least in the 1850's (that's what I am up to :))...that when rarities were discovered after-the-fact...that you could sometimes get Mint officials to retrieve the old dies and re-strike NEW ones ?

Did I read and understand that section correctly ? hm

It also appears they may have mixed-and-matched:  created new "coins" with obverse/reverse combinations that weren't the original pairing.  

This appears to be not so much for Double Eagles but for the smaller denomination coins of the day.  Might have included DEs...I'm still reading.  And maybe it was just a 1-time thing as opposed to happened every now-and-then.  Anyway, it was so bizarre and noteworthy I though it best to stop what I was doing and ask it now before I forgot.

Feel free to enlighten me....:)

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 1/20/2023 at 10:43 PM, erwindoc said:

I have been slowly plugging along on the 20th century portion of the set.  It only has 2-3 tougher years. Gold has went up since I started. so even the common dates will be more!

You're putting together a complete or nearly-complete set of Liberty DEs ?

AU-53's for the CC's ?

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On 1/19/2023 at 2:42 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Came Across An Interesting (and confusing) Section in the Liberty Head DE book.....it appears, at least in the 1850's (that's what I am up to :))...that when rarities were discovered after-the-fact...that you could sometimes get Mint officials to retrieve the old dies and re-strike NEW ones ?

Did I read and understand that section correctly ? hm

That is speculation, and not based on fact. Until well into the 20th century no one knew which DE were "rare." Plus, it's not certain that anyone actually collected DE by date or date/mint. Lastly, dated dies were routinely destroyed at the end of each year.

Edited by RWB
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On 1/21/2023 at 11:49 AM, RWB said:

That is speculation, and not based on fact. Until well into the 20th century no one knew which DE were "rare." Plus, it's not certain that anyone actually collected DE by date or date/mint. Lastly, dated dies were routinely destroyed at the end of each year.

Thanks... here's the relevant section which you can see bleeds into an editorial from HUNT'S bemoaning the surge in coin collecting among the American people, circa 1859.

20230121_120248.jpg

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 1/21/2023 at 4:29 PM, RWB said:

Typical of confusion, assumptions and baseless guesses. The author was simply being a parrot on someone's shoulder thoughtlessly repeating what was heard.

Bowers and Galiette were the co-authors.

Obviously, there isn't going to be videotape or a court room conviction on these illegal activities....so we basically rely on what's been handed down over the years, right ?

While it COULD be true that this statement/paragraph is false -- i.e., Mint officials never did this in the mid-1800's -- it's POSSIBLE that they did.  Maybe Bowers/Galiette had multiple other listings of this kind of thing going on and their degree of confidence in it having taken place was maybe pretty high (let's say 80-90%)....not 95% like in a court room where it must be "beyond a reasonable doubt" but very high...and much higher than 50-50 where you just make stuff up.

Plausible ?

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 1/22/2023 at 10:43 AM, RWB said:

Anything along the false lines suggested is "possible" so it can not be disproved. But is any of it plausible given facts available? No.

Outright thefts from the Mint seemed to be very rare, they had good controls.  I guess the question is would unauthorized usage of the dies be something they were on the lookout for (assuming they weren't destroyed at year-end).

1857-58 does appear to be when coin collecting took off.  You do have some actual articles and editorials bemoaning this cult-like devotion as it was called at the time.

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On 1/21/2023 at 5:11 PM, Timely said:

I may be in the minority, but I prefer the Liberty DE design to the Gaudens, both obverse and reverse. Gaudens is okay, but when I keep hearing it’s the most beautiful coin ever struck I just roll my eyes. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

True, and you make some good points.  The Liberty Head design has grown on me, more so for the obverse than the reverse where the Saint's eagle to me is light-years better than the one on the reverse of the Liberty Head.

But as we discussed somewhere else on another thread (I don't think it was on this one)....the relatively clean, uncluttered, and "basined" fields on the Liberty Head obverse make for a very appealing coin.

I have a Liberty Head DE on my Wish List. :) (thumbsu

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BTW, Timely, nice-looking coin.  Do you have other Liberty's ?  Saints?

Any good books on the Liberty Heads ?  The only ones I have are the Bowers Red Book and the Liberty Head DE coffee-table book that I am reading now.

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On 1/22/2023 at 10:48 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1857-58 does appear to be when coin collecting took off.  You do have some actual articles and editorials bemoaning this cult-like devotion as it was called at the time.

The only negative publicity occurred when some coin collector group complained about unfair treatment, or the Mint not following its own policies. I recall a few minor objections, but most concern was about coin collecting being taken over by for-profit dealers, and the pestering of Philadelphia Mint staff for special treatment such as restrikes of circulation and pattern pieces, off-metal pieces and the like. There was incessant complain through at least 1889 against profiteering. Most of the low mintage silver in the 1880s was actually an attempt to create enough to satisfy collectors and keep dealers from profiting. There was one letter, I recall, where a buyer of proof sets was "cut off" because he bought too many appeared to be selling them at a profit.

Here's a short letter from 1888 where orders are given for coining additional gold pieces to prevent speculation (and likely holiday gift use). There are others along the same lines well into the 1930s.

1888.thumb.jpg.1513d040100c355cbe6ed21879df4514.jpg

There were certainly abuses at different times and under several administrations. But there are very, very few contemporary statements about exactly which Mint officers were involved. I have reliable documents/information about several people, but publication will have to await my book about Circulation Restrikes and Patterns. The research already done clearly shows that the past generations assumptions are mostly hot air or distortions to cover ignorance.

Edited by RWB
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Question

In my hundred year gold type set, which features a 1776 Carson City Double Eagle, the double CC mintmark has them (the two Cs) almost touching each other.

When I go to the Coin Explorer for the coin, the representative 1776 CC photo shows a wide gap between the two Cs.

Would dies for the year be created such that they would be significantly different in this regard?  Why?

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  @USAuPzlBxBob--I assume you meant "1876" in both cases where you typed "1776".

   Prior to about 1992 mint marks were punched by hand into each set of dies that were to be shipped from the Philadelphia mint, where dies for all mints were then prepared, to the branch mints. Different punches were often in use during the same year, and the branch mints sometimes used reverse dies received in previous years. It is quite common, therefore, for different coins with the same date to be known with mint marks of two or more sizes, shapes or styles, and in different positions.

    Researchers for a number of coin series have documented the known sizes, styles, and positions of mint marks to identify many of the branch mint die varieties of those series. Larger denomination gold coins tend to be the exception due to the high cost of attempting to collect them by die variety.  Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins (1987), at p.568, lists the 1876-CC double eagle as being known with both a "Close CC" (presumably like yours) and a "Wide CC", with a "doubled rev[erse] die" that had already been used on coins dated 1875, which Breen commented (not necessarily correctly) was "rare".  It is possible that there are additional varieties. You may want to look at photos of 1876-CC double eagles in PCGS Coinfacts and in online auction archives to see if you can find a reverse with a mint mark that matches your coin.

   

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