SP70 VS PF70??? 2 2

[Errorists]

 Is a designated SP70 coin more rare or valuable then a same designated PF70 coin? 

[Henri Charriere]

It depends.  Do either sport a die crack?      Seriously, it all boils down to supply and demand----and the ever elusive, ever fickle Fair Market Value of the coin, the date and the series.

[RWB]

What does "SP" mean? Does that protect the coin from sunburn?

If "SP" is an abbreviation for "Specimen," then it must have a definition. Otherwise, the designation is meaningless and of no value.

[Sandon]

   The term "specimen" is sometimes used to designate a coin that is some sort of special striking or was deliberately made with a special finish but is not a proof.  I don't think that the U.S. Mint has ever used the term "specimen" to designate a coin that it has sold to collectors or distributed for circulation, but grading services have used the abbreviation "SP" to designate some non-proof U.S. coins such as those from 1965-67 Special Mint Sets, and, as I recall, some "matte finish" uncirculated coins such as the 1998-S silver Kennedy half dollars that were paired in a set with RFK commemorative silver dollars.

   A "specimen" is considered a separate issue from a "proof" of the same design, date and mint. Their respective values are determined by supply and demand in each case, so there could be no general rule as to which of a "proof" or a "specimen" would be the more valuable.

[zadok]

...contrary to what others mite have u believe...SP does refer to a specimen strike...both the terms specimen n proof do have meanings but none r set in stone, both can have different definitions based on which countries they r struck n even at different mints in the same country, the terms r often interchangable n determined by the originator of the coin, even the TPGS differentiate on the designations...there is no universal definition that is 100% accepted by all...usually the proof designation is defined by the method of striking, equipment used, number of strikes, preparation of dies n planchets but this is not standardized for all such coins issued by the same mint n has changed thru different eras...there r some on this forum that assert n believe they r the anointed arbitrator for such determinations but no one has ever been appointed as such n that assertion is not endorsed by all...specimen strikes can often just refer to the handling of each coin after it has been struck as opposed to actual manufacturing techniques...to specifically address ur question, normally proofs bring more money than specimens, primarily because their numbers r usually known n specimens r not recorded, in some instances there may be specimen coins where no proofs were struck...its not a one size answer that fits all....

[RWB]

The word "Specimen" is tossed about by TPGs and is one of those "looks like something special" class of undefined and undocumented "things." The word might, at times, have a legitimate meaning as Sandon implies, but just like the "Specimen 1793 cent" and "Specimen 1794 dollar" and "Specimen 1878 dollar" there is NO Independent documentation to support a special designation -- it just "looks like it might, kinda, sorta, could be" a greed-stretched thing.

When the US Mint uses the word "specimen" in it's modern sales literature, then it is nothing more than a marketing name. Historically the term was used to indicate an example of a class, such as "I send a specimen of the half dollar as requested." It was also used in context to refer to a sample made specifically for approval such as "I send you a specimen of the new half dollar for your approbation." A further use was again in context relating to pattern or experimental pieces, "Enclosed find a specimen of the proposed five-cent coin." High quality pieces were also sent to branch mints when new designs were introduced. This was supposed to give the branch an example of what a finished coins was supposed to look like.

Edited November 28, 2022 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

If you check out the listings provided for the 1913 Liberty Head nickel as compiled by Wikipedia, you will find all five extant coins referred to as "specimens," with different "pedigrees."  Some are proofs and others are theoretically Mint State although one, the McDermott specimen clearly, according to the account, shows signs of wear (circulation).  

Overseas, in France, SPL (Splendide) or SP for short, is equivalent to the U.S. grades of MS-63 and MS-64.

In Italy, oddly, there are two SPL's (Splendido) used, one to denote the U.S. equivalent of from AU-55 to MS-62; the other to denote coins graded at MS-63 and MS-64. (There are no descriptors used to denote Brilliant Uncirculated or Proof coins, as such.)

Note:  I deeply regret I have never been accorded the luxury of assuming the stature of those licensed to speak ex cathedra as arbitrators, self-anointed or not, my station merely being messenger to the stars on the Forum.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/28/2022 at 9:39 AM, Sandon said:

The term "specimen" is sometimes used to designate a coin that is some sort of special striking or was deliberately made with a special finish but is not a proof.  I don't think that the U.S. Mint has ever used the term "specimen" to designate a coin that it has sold to collectors or distributed for circulation, but grading services have used the abbreviation "SP" to designate some non-proof U.S. coins such as those from 1965-67 Special Mint Sets, and, as I recall, some "matte finish" uncirculated coins such as the 1998-S silver Kennedy half dollars that were paired in a set with RFK commemorative silver dollars.    A "specimen" is considered a separate issue from a "proof" of the same design, date and mint. Their respective values are determined by supply and demand in each case, so there could be no general rule as to which of a "proof" or a "specimen" would be the more valuable.

I believe the 2013 Enhanced ASEs were labeled with "SP" on them.  I thought they were proof finishes. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/28/2022 at 9:51 AM, RWB said:

The word "Specimen" is tossed about by TPGs and is one of those "looks like something special" class of undefined and undocumented "things." The word might, at times, have a legitimate meaning as Sandon implies, but just like the "Specimen 1793 cent" and "Specimen 1794 dollar" and "Specimen 1878 dollar" there is NO Independent documentation to support a special designation -- it just "looks like it might, kinda, sorta, could be" a greed-stretched thing.

You gave a few pages to the 1921 "Specimens" in your DE book, though noting definitive proof was lacking.

Is it wrong for a TPG to note "Specimen" on the label as long as both buyer and seller are aware that it is based on appearance and not special dies, polishing, or a different press ?

Edited November 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/28/2022 at 10:00 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

If you check out the listings provided for the 1913 Liberty Head nickel as compiled by Wikipedia, you will find all five extant coins referred to as "specimens," with different "pedigrees."  Some are proofs and others are theoretically Mint State although one, the McDermott specimen clearly, according to the account, shows signs of wear (circulation).  

Some are proofs and others aren't ?  That's very interesting.

I'm not an expert on the 1913 Liberty Head...but if they were struck "illegally" or even accidentally....I would think they'd all be struck the same way (proof or regular strike), especially if it involved nefarious activitity.  Last thing you want to do is take too much time switching dies and stuff if you want to get away with an illegal or unauthorized act.

[Errorists]

I found a West Point proof coin with a SP70 designation. Is that even possible?

[Errorists]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:06 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

It depends.  Do either sport a die crack?      Seriously, it all boils down to supply and demand----and the ever elusive, ever fickle Fair Market Value of the coin, the date and the series.

So are you saying that a PF69 UCAM die crack coin should be designated SP69 UCAM die crack? I tend to agree.

[Sandon]

@Errorists--What "West Point proof coin with a SP designation" do you mean?  Can you show us a photo of the coin in its certified holder or at least describe it.

   A die crack generally doesn't qualify as a desirable error or variety and isn't--nor should it be--referred to on a grading service holder.

 

[zadok]

On 11/28/2022 at 9:51 AM, RWB said:

The word "Specimen" is tossed about by TPGs and is one of those "looks like something special" class of undefined and undocumented "things." The word might, at times, have a legitimate meaning as Sandon implies, but just like the "Specimen 1793 cent" and "Specimen 1794 dollar" and "Specimen 1878 dollar" there is NO Independent documentation to support a special designation -- it just "looks like it might, kinda, sorta, could be" a greed-stretched thing.

When the US Mint uses the word "specimen" in it's modern sales literature, then it is nothing more than a marketing name. Historically the term was used to indicate an example of a class, such as "I send a specimen of the half dollar as requested." It was also used in context to refer to a sample made specifically for approval such as "I send you a specimen of the new half dollar for your approbation." A further use was again in context relating to pattern or experimental pieces, "Enclosed find a specimen of the proposed five-cent coin." High quality pieces were also sent to branch mints when new designs were introduced. This was supposed to give the branch an example of what a finished coins was supposed to look like.

...just one lay persons opinion, nothing more nothing less...numismatic classifications dont gravitate by what the US mint does or doesnt do or says anymore than one US book compiler says or doesnt say...numerous other numismatic authors would n should disagree as several mint masters globally would disagree...collectors should remember that just because there isnt a documented piece of paper concerning the item in question doesnt mean the item wasnt made or doesnt exist, written correspondence n ledger annotations r not all inclusive, coins r not always empirical nor should they be expected to be...the various branch mint proof coins conclusively demonstrate without written documentation that certain published comments to the contrary r just rubbish....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/28/2022 at 12:09 PM, Sandon said:

@Errorists--What "West Point proof coin with a SP designation" do you mean?  Can you show us a photo of the coin in its certified holder or at least describe it.

Were the 2013 Enhanced ASEs struck at WP ?  I can't recall and my coins are buried under stuff.

On 11/28/2022 at 12:09 PM, Sandon said:

A die crack generally doesn't qualify as a desirable error or variety and isn't--nor should it be--referred to on a grading service holder.

But it is indicative of classic coins being legit, so that's good.  Tough to replicate known die cracks.

[zadok]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:00 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You gave a few pages to the 1921 "Specimens" in your DE book, though noting definitive proof was lacking.

Is it wrong for a TPG to note "Specimen" on the label as long as both buyer and seller are aware that it is based on appearance and not special dies, polishing, or a different press ?

...as has been stated on this forum numerous times..."specimen" does not have to in relation to the manufacturing of the coins, it can be about the handling of the coin after striking...King Nortons's Mint retained "specimen" examples of virtually every coin they ever struck n documented them as such, there r numerous examples so certified by PCGS....

[zadok]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:03 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Some are proofs and others aren't ?  That's very interesting.

I'm not an expert on the 1913 Liberty Head...but if they were struck "illegally" or even accidentally....I would think they'd all be struck the same way (proof or regular strike), especially if it involved nefarious activitity.  Last thing you want to do is take too much time switching dies and stuff if you want to get away with an illegal or unauthorized act.

...accurate assessment none were proofs....

[Errorists]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:09 AM, Sandon said:

@Errorists--What "West Point proof coin with a SP designation" do you mean?  Can you show us a photo of the coin in its certified holder or at least describe it.

   A die crack generally doesn't qualify as a desirable error or variety and isn't--nor should it be--referred to on a grading 

 

[Errorists]

SP means Specimen Proof. So can we get a designation DCSP70 UCAM? Meaning Die Crack Specimen Proof 70 Ultra Cameo? 

[Sandon]

   "SP" means "Specimen", however defined, not "Specimen Proof". A proof is not a "specimen" nor vice-versa. In my opinion, the grading services should use whatever nomenclature the issuing mint used for the issue, not make up their own.  Coins that the U.S. mint describes as "Enhanced Uncirculated," for example, should not be designated "SP" by a grading service.

  A die crack is not part of the grade of a coin, so it should not be included as part of the grade.  A coin with a significant error for which there is an established market may be separately described on another line of the grading service holder. There is no such market for minor die cracks.  If you enjoy collecting them, it's better for you that there isn't, so you can purchase them for no additional cost.  As you can see these cracks by examining the coin yourself, what do you need this characteristic described on a grading service holder for a substantial fee?

  We're still waiting to see the coin that you say is from a proof issue that the grading holder described as "SP".

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/28/2022 at 3:12 PM, Errorists said:

SP means Specimen Proof. So can we get a designation DCSP70 UCAM? Meaning Die Crack Specimen Proof 70 Ultra Cameo? 

I've seen labels that mention the Die Crack but not in the coin designation itself.

[Errorists]

On 11/28/2022 at 2:57 PM, Sandon said:

   "SP" means "Specimen", however defined, not "Specimen Proof". A proof is not a "specimen" nor vice-versa. In my opinion, the grading services should use whatever nomenclature the issuing mint used for the issue, not make up their own.  Coins that the U.S. mint describes as "Enhanced Uncirculated," for example, should not be designated "SP" by a grading service.

  A die crack is not part of the grade of a coin, so it should not be included as part of the grade.  A coin with a significant error for which there is an established market may be separately described on another line of the grading service holder. There is no such market for minor die cracks.  If you enjoy collecting them, it's better for you that there isn't, so you can purchase them for no additional cost.  As you can see these cracks by examining the coin yourself, what do you need this characteristic described on a grading service holder for a substantial fee?

  We're still waiting to see the coin that you say is from a proof issue that the grading holder described as "SP".

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:43 AM, Errorists said:

So are you saying that a PF69 UCAM die crack coin should be designated SP69 UCAM die crack? I tend to agree.

No, not particularly, but as an ode to your fascination with such peculiarities, why not?

[Errorists]

Makes perfect sense..

[Sandon]

      @Errorists ' coin is a 2019-W "Enhanced Finish" one-ounce "American Liberty" High Relief gold coin. Both the Deluxe "Redbook" a.k.a. "Mega Red" (7th edition 2021) and the current issue of Coin World price this coin in the "MS" (mint state or regular strike) column, not the proof column.  Apparently, the mint didn't call this coin a "proof", although what appear to be mirrored fields and frosted devices make it look like a proof, presumably due to differences in the manufacturing process. (I've never personally inspected one of these coins.)  NGC added to the confusion with the "SP" ("specimen") designation instead of simply using the mint's already confusing "Enhanced Finish" nomenclature. Since it wasn't issued by the mint as a "proof", NGC hasn't given a "proof" an "SP" designation.

[Errorists]

If it looks like a Duck,walks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck it's a Duck.

[Sandon]

  Is an 1880-S Morgan dollar that is a "deep mirror prooflike" with deeply mirrored fields and fully frosted devices also to be considered a "proof"?  Isn't "proof" a method of manufacture, not just a way a coin looks?

[Errorists]

On 11/28/2022 at 4:50 PM, Sandon said:

  Is an 1880-S Morgan dollar that is a "deep mirror prooflike" with deeply mirrored fields and fully frosted devices also to be considered a "proof"?  Isn't "proof" a method of manufacture, not just a way a coin looks?

Some of those old coins are graded proof.

[zadok]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:53 PM, Errorists said:

Some of those old coins are graded proof.

very doubtful....

[Errorists]

On 11/28/2022 at 5:35 PM, zadok said:

very doubtful....

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/3212/US-proof-coins/#:~:text=defined mirror surfaces.-,The first gold coins struck by the US Mint that,superb with completely original surfaces.