1933 Double Eagle 1 1

[Hoghead515]

Ive been reading through some Numismatic Scrapbook Magazines and I saw something that caught my eye in a January 1944 issue. Does it look to you all that Stack's is advertizing to sell one? Heres the advertizment. 

[Hoghead515]

[Rod D.]

2,000 lots!  Impressive. Do you know anything about Mr. Flanagan? 

[Rod D.]

Col. Flanagan. My bad. 

[Hoghead515]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:02 PM, Rod D. said:

2,000 lots!  Impressive. Do you know anything about Mr. Flanagan? 

I sure dont but it seems he had an impressive collection. These scrapbooks are very interesting. Stacks advertizes selling off several impressive collections from different people. Ive always wondered how many of us own some of the coins now that has been advertized in these books. 

[Sandon]

   I recall that it was later in 1944 the U.S. government first took the position that 1933 double eagles hadn't been legally issued and began confiscating them.  Prior to that several of them were sold in the open market.  One of them had been sold to King Farouk of Egypt, who had obtained an export license for it.  This is the only known example that is now legally held by a private owner, after the government settled the case over its confiscation due to the export license.  The settlement required the party from whom the coin had been confiscated to split the proceeds of sale with the government. The purchaser had to pay an additional $20 [!] to the government to monetize the coin.

[Hoghead515]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:17 PM, Sandon said:

   I recall that it was later in 1944 the U.S. government first took the position that 1933 double eagles hadn't been legally issued and began confiscating them.  Prior to that several of them were sold in the open market.  One of them had been sold to King Farouk of Egypt, who had obtained an export license for it.  This is the only known example that is now legally held by a private owner, after the government settled the case over its confiscation due to the export license.  The settlement required the party from whom the coin had been confiscated to split the proceeds of sale with the government. The purchaser had to pay an additional $20 [!] to the government to monetize the coin.

That clears up alot of questions I had bouncing around in my head. 

[GoldFinger1969]

This was the auction/sale that started it all. 

Ernest Kehr, the mid-20's stamp and coin commentator at The NY Herald Tribune (probably 3rd largest NYC paper at that time), reached out to the U.S. Mint to find out how many 1933 DEs were out there.  He reached Leland Howard, a high-ranking Mint official, who told him NONE were supposed to be out there. 

The Feds got involved....Stacks pulled the coin....and while most of the U.S. government was involved for the next 8-10 years defeating or containing Hitler, Mao, and Stalin....the U.S. Mint focused on the Real Evil in the world....folks who had a 1933 Double Eagle. 

[GoldFinger1969]

I also believe that Numismatic News had advertisements for the 1933 DE as early as 1937.  I am unaware of any FOR SALE notices before then, which I have to admit does lend some credence to those who say they "escaped" in 1937.

I still think they should have been "legal" even if they got out in 1937, but a 1933 or 1934 escape strengthens the buyers claims.

Regardless, Mary O'Reilly and others surely knew of the ads (they were in periodicals tracked by the Mint) and nobody objected before Howard in 1944.  Wikipedia notes that "she was not interviewed when the Mint in 1944 investigated how several 1933 Double Eagles, never officially released, had come onto the market, an omission Burdette finds unusual."

[Henri Charriere]

Serendipitous discovery!  This is the first I heard of Stack's previous address, as gleaned from the photo you provided: No. 12 West 46th Street. Today (no, I didn’t hop on a train. I cheated, and let Google's streetcam do the work for me) I found out that street number no longer exists! Instead, there are two office buildings on the site (right around the corner from Diamond Row, West 47th Street) absorbed by lot numbers 10, 14 and 16.

My only question:  If one had been sold, what was the price realized (and did the highest bidder insist the merchandise be delivered unencapsulated)?    

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/26/2022 at 7:43 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

My only question:  If one had been sold, what was the price realized 

I believe when Switt sold the coins for the first time to dealers/collectors they went for $500.  I believe that the Farouk Saint was sold by Max Mehl for about $1,500 in 1944 (OTTOMH).

Prices asked and prices realized in the 1930's and 1940's were all over the place because nobody knew the actual mintages for many of the coins AND how many had survived.

Other coins in the 1930's were believed to be more rare than the 1933 Saint, including the 1926-D, 1926-S, and 1924-S  It was assumed that a bunch of the 445,000 DEs were out there and would eventually surface.  Same thing with the 1927-D (which did have a limited number out there).

Edited November 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Timeline, if anbody is interested:

• March 2nd, 1933:  1st 1933 Saint-Gaudens DEs are struck.  The official Mint records and most previous sources do NOT cite March 2nd as the date of first striking, but March 15th.  Roger Burdette uncovered this discrepancy from a letter dated 1945.
• March 4th:  FDR sworn in as president
• March 5th:  Last official gold shipment to Federal Reserve banks leaves the Mint
• March 6th:  Treasury Secretary Woodin (a coin collector) orders Mint Director Robert J. Grant to not "pay out" any more gold.  Grant complies, with an addendum:  ".....this does not prohibit the deposit of gold and the usual payment thereof."
• March 7th:  A wire is sent from an Asst Attorney General stating that Mint personnel could continue exchanging gold coins for gold coins.
• March 15th:  A letter is sent by Acting Director Mary M. O'Reilly (Mint Director Robert J. Grant  was on leave) informing Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY that he could deposit gold bullion directly at the Mint in exchange for gold coin because it "....neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury." 
• April 5th:  FDR's Executive Order 6102 goes into effect.
• April 12th:  Last "legal" day to participate in coin-for-coin exchanges.
• May(?)-June(?) - An entire bag (250) of 1928 Saint-Gaudens DEs is stolen from the Philly Mint vault.  The bag appears to have been stolen at the same time that 1933 Saints were placed in the vault.

[Hoghead515]

Ever since I heard that story about the bag of 1928 DEs, Ive been thinking of all the possiblities. Its raised these questions. Are they stashed away in the theifs old house somewhere? Are they buried? Could some have been spent? Could a small handful have went through TPGs at one time or another? Are they accross seas or in a foreign country? We will never know unless a bag turns up one of these days. Its still fun to think of all those possibilities. Never know. The theif may have got scared and buried them. They are out there somewhere.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ever since I heard that story about the bag of 1928 DEs, Ive been thinking of all the possiblities. Its raised these questions. Are they stashed away in the thiefs old house somewhere? 

The original thief has to have died by now. 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Are they buried? 

Could be, but I doubt it.  Worth $1 million even if melted down.

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Could some have been spent? 

Yeah...each Double Eagle could buy a few hundred chocolate bars in The Depression ! 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Could a small handful have went through TPGs at one time or another? 

Maybe...but no way to trace it as they would have crossed through the TPGs 55-60 years or more after the theft.  I guess the 1928's -- all 500 of them -- could have slowly been disbursed over the years/decades as the 1928 was considered a common coin.

But as gold was not legal to own for Americans until 1974, it may have been difficult to easily get rid of them in size from 1933-74.  Today it would be much easier.  

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Are they accross seas or in a foreign country? 

Nobody knows.  

We know very little about this theft.  As I've written here before, either because they hated the folks who obtained 1933 DE's or they were out to protect the innocent Philly Mint Super who was going to take the blame (unfairly) for the 1928's theft....the Fed spent lots of resources on the 1933's and not much apparently on the 1928's.

I've come across NOTHING on the 1928 theft except this well-written piece for a 1928 Double Eagle bag auction that took place over at Heritage a decade ago.   Roger Burdette wrote it.  Check it out.....

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/-5-000-mint-bag-for-1928-saint-gaudens-double-eagles-pcgs-9189-/a/1166-4647.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

 

:.

Edited November 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

I'll bet if the stolen 1928's were found and trading today, they'd probably trade at a 40% premium to regular MS-65 1928's...or close to $3,200 vs. $2,200 for a non-stolen one. 

[Hoghead515]

We will never know. Or may never know if they never turn up. But I have all those questions bouncing around in my mind. They could have been melted down like you mentioned earlier. The theifs great grandkid may still have them in a safe somewhere. Would be an exciting story if they ever turned up.  I dont see them stealing them and not trying to spend them.  Probably melted down and redeposited somewhere by an unknown accomplice. Or melted and sold to a shady bullion buyer who can keep his mouth shut. Around here we got scrap metal buyers like that. They buy all the stolen converters the theives are cutting off our vechicles. And all sorts of other stolen copper and aluminum. They are good at it. The theives are still at it and seems the law cant catch the buyers. Or wont try. 

[zadok]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ever since I heard that story about the bag of 1928 DEs, Ive been thinking of all the possiblities. Its raised these questions. Are they stashed away in the theifs old house somewhere? Are they buried? Could some have been spent? Could a small handful have went through TPGs at one time or another? Are they accross seas or in a foreign country? We will never know unless a bag turns up one of these days. Its still fun to think of all those possibilities. Never know. The theif may have got scared and buried them. They are out there somewhere.

...possibly melted long ago....

[zadok]

On 11/29/2022 at 5:28 AM, Hoghead515 said:

We will never know. Or may never know if they never turn up. But I have all those questions bouncing around in my mind. They could have been melted down like you mentioned earlier. The theifs great grandkid may still have them in a safe somewhere. Would be an exciting story if they ever turned up.  I dont see them stealing them and not trying to spend them.  Probably melted down and redeposited somewhere by an unknown accomplice. Or melted and sold to a shady bullion buyer who can keep his mouth shut. Around here we got scrap metal buyers like that. They buy all the stolen converters the theives are cutting off our vechicles. And all sorts of other stolen copper and aluminum. They are good at it. The theives are still at it and seems the law cant catch the buyers. Or wont try. 

...even if the bag turned up, the feds would jump thru their arses to confiscate them even if the records indicated there was no gold missing....

[zadok]

On 11/28/2022 at 10:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The original thief has to have died by now. 

Could be, but I doubt it.  Worth $1 million even if melted down.

Yeah...each Double Eagle could buy a few hundred chocolate bars in The Depression ! 

Maybe...but no way to trace it as they would have crossed through the TPGs 55-60 years or more after the theft.  I guess the 1928's -- all 500 of them -- could have slowly been disbursed over the years/decades as the 1928 was considered a common coin.

But as gold was not legal to own for Americans until 1974, it may have been difficult to easily get rid of them in size from 1933-74.  Today it would be much easier.  

Nobody knows.  

We know very little about this theft.  As I've written here before, either because they hated the folks who obtained 1933 DE's or they were out to protect the innocent Philly Mint Super who was going to take the blame (unfairly) for the 1928's theft....the Fed spent lots of resources on the 1933's and not much apparently on the 1928's.

I've come across NOTHING on the 1928 theft except this well-written piece for a 1928 Double Eagle bag auction that took place over at Heritage a decade ago.   Roger Burdette wrote it.  Check it out.....

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/-5-000-mint-bag-for-1928-saint-gaudens-double-eagles-pcgs-9189-/a/1166-4647.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

 

:.

...i was going to just consign the bag full but the shipping on a full bag was just too expensive....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/29/2022 at 5:28 AM, Hoghead515 said:

We will never know. Or may never know if they never turn up. But I have all those questions bouncing around in my mind. They could have been melted down like you mentioned earlier. The theifs great grandkid may still have them in a safe somewhere. Would be an exciting story if they ever turned up.  I dont see them stealing them and not trying to spend them.  Probably melted down and redeposited somewhere by an unknown accomplice. Or melted and sold to a shady bullion buyer who can keep his mouth shut. Around here we got scrap metal buyers like that. They buy all the stolen converters the theives are cutting off our vechicles. And all sorts of other stolen copper and aluminum. They are good at it. The theives are still at it and seems the law cant catch the buyers. Or wont try. 

They couldn't find anything to do an investigation back in 1937 so I doubt we can do anything 85 years later.

I wonder if there's any chance of ID'ing those coins via the dies.  Maybe Roger or one of the vets here can answer that.   Probably not; they'd have likely tried it by now.  And if somehow those coins got into general collector circulation and many are now in holders graded...if you got them ID'd as part of the Stolen 500 they could be confiscated (or maybe you'd just have to monetize it by sending the U.S. government $20 !!  ).

It's just amazing when you think about it......25 1933 DEs they say came from the cashier they can track and use in a court of law in 2013....but 500 coins stolen from a locked and sealed cage/vault, no leads and no idea who could have done it, as if it was a bathroom and eveyrbody at the Philly Mint had access to that room and area.

Edited November 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/29/2022 at 8:00 AM, zadok said:

...even if the bag turned up, the feds would jump thru their arses to confiscate them even if the records indicated there was no gold missing....

There was gold missing in the count with the 1928's.  There was NO gold missing with regards to the 1933's.

Veeerrrry Interesting, as Artie Johnson used to say on Laugh-In. 

[zadok]

On 11/29/2022 at 9:39 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

There was gold missing in the count with the 1928's.  There was NO gold missing with regards to the 1933's.

Veeerrrry Interesting, as Artie Johnson used to say on Laugh-In. 

...well if the count was off they r still looking for it n someone to blame...im surprised they havent confiscated 500 1928 DE that owners dont have documentation for....i bet there was an inquiry into the pedigree on the empty bag, an audit trail if u will....oh wait there is a couple guys in black knocking on my door now....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/29/2022 at 11:45 AM, zadok said:

...well if the count was off they r still looking for it n someone to blame...im surprised they havent confiscated 500 1928 DE that owners dont have documentation for....i bet there was an inquiry into the pedigree on the empty bag, an audit trail if u will....oh wait there is a couple guys in black knocking on my door now....

As Roger's 1928 DE Bag story tells it....$5,000 was alot of money.  The Secret Service and police were called in right-away....fingerprints...rooms locked and sealed.

Dressel, the Philly Mint Super, had (blindly ?) signed a statement that the books were correct when he assumed control of the Mint.  When the discrepancy was found -- even thought NOBODY higher-up though he was responsible or involved -- he was legally on the hook for the shortfall.  That led to the push for legislation to absolve him and future personnel from thefts that took place through no fault of their own.

Edited November 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

It has been some ten years since @RWBpenned his account regarding bag #94 which has long since been sold.

To put this matter in some perspective, I restate the essential facts as follows:  There were $18,000,000 in 1928-dated double-eagles (among many other coin denominations) stored in [3,600] standard-sized canvas bags each containing 250 coins with a face value of $5,000 weighing 233.9 troy pounds, in the aggregate.  (As anyone who has carried a 100 troy ounce [8+ troy lb.] bar of precious metal knows, any reference to thief, singular, is being overly optimistic. Even a 1,000 troy ounce bar [80+ troy lb.] is virtually impossible to move without assistance and a conveyance.  This theft, if it occurred, required the assistance of more than one person.  What the USG should have done was offer a reward for the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator(s).  (With the passage of time, it is still not too late to offer an incentive today, if only to clear the case and put the matter to rest.)

Some questions:

1-  How many vaults were there in the Philadelphia Mint?

2-  How many cages were there in each of the vaults of the Philadelphia Mint?

3-  Approximately how many canvas bags of all denominations could be accommodated in each cage?

4-  How many canvas bags could be accommodated, in total, in the vault in question, at the time the bag was unaccounted for?

5-  How many cages comprised the "main gold vault?"

Other thoughts...

As mentioned elsewhere on this thread, there is nothing to distinguish a "stolen" double-eagle from a "regular" one, absent unique die features.

[Side note:  I believe the sewing department employing women sewing canvas bags was disbanded and the entire operation farmed out to Federal Prison Industries sometime after it was founded in the summer of 1934. There may or may not be something in the historical record to support this assertion.]

According to the account, Edwin Dressel, Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint was cleared of "financial responsibility" for the irregularity uncovered via a private bill passed by Congress in 1945.  To date, no one has been held accountable for the missing bag.

The following may not sit well with some members, but the unaccounted for $5,000 bag of gold double-eagles represents, by my figuring, one three-thousand six-hundredth (1/3,600th) of the total bag-value of the $18M in 1928 gold double-eagles stored in that cage, inside that vault, at that time, exclusive of all other denominations of gold stored at that location on the date in question. What enquiring minds would like to know is what the investigation of this matter has cost the Government thus far?

FINAL DISPOSITION:  UNKNOWN.

FWIW...  The well-orchestrated "insider"  theft in 2017 of a 100-kilogram (220-lb.) gold "coin" worth $4.3M [USD] dubbed the "Big Maple Leaf," dated 2007, was solved in due course and its quite young participants sentenced to serve between 3 and up to 4-1/2 years in prison.  The coin, never recovered, was presumed to have been melted down.  

Nearly a hundred years have passed since the bag of double-eagles was discovered missing.  All of the original "usual suspects" are long gone.  It is quite possible the entire contents of the bag had been quietly dispersed, apparently amiably among the principals involved and barring a spontaneous declaration on the deathbed of a descendant, or relative, or friend of a friend of a friend, the matter will continue as just another open enduring mystery. 

[olympicsos]

On 11/29/2022 at 9:38 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They couldn't find anything to do an investigation back in 1937 so I doubt we can do anything 85 years later.

I wonder if there's any chance of ID'ing those coins via the dies.  Maybe Roger or one of the vets here can answer that.   Probably not; they'd have likely tried it by now.  And if somehow those coins got into general collector circulation and many are now in holders graded...if you got them ID'd as part of the Stolen 500 they could be confiscated (or maybe you'd just have to monetize it by sending the U.S. government $20 !!  ).

It's just amazing when you think about it......25 1933 DEs they say came from the cashier they can track and use in a court of law in 2013....but 500 coins stolen from a locked and sealed cage/vault, no leads and no idea who could have done it, as if it was a bathroom and eveyrbody at the Philly Mint had access to that room and area.

Whoever discovers a bag like that could always slowly unload them without the market detecting it. Maybe they already did it? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/29/2022 at 3:43 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It has been some ten years since @RWBpenned his account regarding bag #94 which has long since been sold. To put this matter in some perspective, I restate the essential facts as follows:  There were $18,000,000 in 1928-dated double-eagles (among many other coin denominations) stored in [3,600] standard-sized canvas bags each containing 250 coins with a face value of $5,000 weighing 233.9 troy pounds, in the aggregate.  (As anyone who has carried a 100 troy ounce [8+ troy lb.] bar of precious metal knows, any reference to thief, singular, is being overly optimistic. Even a 1,000 troy ounce bar [80+ troy lb.] is virtually impossible to move without assistance and a conveyance.  This theft, if it occurred, required the assistance of more than one person.  What the USG should have done was offer a reward for the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator(s).  (With the passage of time, it is still not too late to offer an incentive today, if only to clear the case and put the matter to rest.)

Wait a second.....isn't a bag of 250 Double Eagles about 16 pounds ?  250 ounces (forget troy vs avidipourous) is about 16 pounds (16 ounces = 1 pound).  I've held a roll of 20 1-ounce gold coins....I think I could "lift" 25 of them.

On 11/29/2022 at 3:43 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

1-  How many vaults were there in the Philadelphia Mint? 2-  How many cages were there in each of the vaults of the Philadelphia Mint? 3-  Approximately how many canvas bags of all denominations could be accommodated in each cage?  4-  How many canvas bags could be accommodated, in total, in the vault in question, at the time the bag was unaccounted for? 5-  How many cages comprised the "main gold vault?"

According to RWB and also FMTM....there were 2 large vaults in the basement of the 3rd Philly Mint....each was entered via an 8-ton vault door which had a time lock, plus 2 smaller doors after that one with combination locks.  The schematic in FMTM is tough to read, but it looks like there are 6 cages in Vault F (the gold vault) and I believe that Cage 1 was the one that McCann supposedly broke into (I guess #1 was closest when you entered the vault and had the most recent coins; Cage 6 would have been further back).

As for how many bags of 250 gold coins.....Roger's Bag article says:

"... The cage was supposed to contain more than $18 million in 1928 double eagles, over $35 million 1929 pieces, another $58 million double eagles dated 1931, and additional $20, $10, $5 and $2.50 pieces, totaling $166,132,130." 

So $111 MM for 1928, 1929, and 1931 Saints....then the other $20 DEs and the $10/$5/$2.50 pieces.  

Net-Net.....over 22,000 BAGS of double eagles @ 250 DE's per bag....in 1 cage !!  So 6x as many for all 6 cages or over 130,000 bags in the entire vault.

There was probably at least 25,000 bags in Cage 1 when you include the miscellaneous $20 DEs plus the other bags for the smaller pieces.  Now, these cages may have been "overfilled" beyond what they should have been....supposedly, there were gold coins on the floor and torn bags here-and-there.

Hopefully Roger will chime in here because FMTM has small lettering on the pics and there may be more details that he has.  I don't have it even in my personal fact sheets on the 1933's and 1928's.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/29/2022 at 12:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

.... Dressel, the Philly Mint Super, had (blindly ?) signed a statement that the books were correct when he assumed control of the Mint....

Each 250-count, $5,000 face value, canvas bag of coins weighs roughly 22+ troy pounds.  I don't know how often inventory at the Mint must be counted but I suspect a total inventory must be conducted each and every time a cage inside a vault is unsealed and resealed.  I seriously doubt any Mint employee would be permitted to execute an order, acting unilaterally, adding or subtracting a bag, or two, on his own, unsupervised.

As a superior government official, I would rely on my subordinates to faithfully carry out their duties.  In this case, that entails counting (which may require the movement of canvas bags, each of which weigh 22.395 troy pounds (33.43 grams per DE or 1.075 t ounces × 250 = 268.75 t oz ÷ 12 = 22.395 t lbs/bag.

The Superintendent did what any human being could be expected to do under the circumstances.  Asked to confirm the bag count, likely conducted out of his presence, Dressel reached for his pen.

[Gratuitous analogy:  Each bag of Domino brand sugar weighs 4 lbs. A canvas bag of DEs weighs five times as much.  If you, as a worker, are assigned to that area in the basement on a regular basis, working long hours, you know you and only a few others have regular access to the cages.  You may be painfully aware of the Rules, but you are also acutely aware of what shuffling heavy unwieldy bags is like, without sufficient ventilation, day in and day out. You know the cage(s) like the back of your hand. If you must count the bags, it's only for the benefit of the person supervising you who happens to be a stickler for the rules. It may be wrong to cut corners, but that's human nature. Now, a question for all you armchair numismatists lurking about out there in cyberland:  are you ready to give me a hand verifying the count of all 3,600 bags in the cage next to this one?  ]

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/29/2022 at 4:40 PM, olympicsos said:

Whoever discovers a bag like that could always slowly unload them without the market detecting it. Maybe they already did it? 

Yup, Olympics....nobody knows.  The 1928 DE was the most produced Saint-Gaudens in history.  8.8 MM minted...half released to FRB's for distribution. 

Roger's Saints DE book says that $50 MM was shipped directly from the Mint and large amounts may have gone to European, South American, and other foreign savers.  1928 was the last year for plentiful exports of gold coins until 1932.   130 delivery dates of 1928's from the Coiner to the Super.....all struck between Janaury 5th and June 7th, 1928.  Practically every day they arrived.  Many went to Argentina and Brazil for trade shipments.

No details available on obverse or reverse dies used.  Over 150,000 1928's are estimated to be available today, with over 16,000 in MS65-66 grades and about 150 in higher grades.

The vault seal for Vault F/Cage #4 dated 6/25/29 said there were 200,000 1928 DEs.

 

[Hoghead515]

On 11/29/2022 at 7:30 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Each 250-count, $5,000 face value, canvas bag of coins weighs roughly 22+ troy pounds.  I don't know how often inventory at the Mint must be counted but I suspect a total inventory must be conducted each and every time a cage inside a vault is unsealed and resealed.  I seriously doubt any Mint employee would be permitted to execute an order, acting unilaterally, adding or subtracting a bag, or two, on his own, unsupervised.

As a superior government official, I would rely on my subordinates to faithfully carry out their duties.  In this case, that entails counting (which may require the movement of canvas bags, each of which weigh 22.395 troy pounds (33.43 grams per DE or 1.075 t ounces × 250 = 268.75 t oz ÷ 12 = 22.395 t lbs/bag.

The Superintendent did what any human being could be expected to do under the circumstances.  Asked to confirm the bag count, likely conducted out of his presence, Dressel reached for his pen.

[Gratuitous analogy:  Each bag of Domino brand sugar weighs 4 lbs. A canvas bag of DEs weighs five times as much.  If you, as a worker, are assigned to that area in the basement on a regular basis, working long hours, you know you and only a few others have regular access to the cages.  You may be painfully aware of the Rules, but you are also acutely aware of what shuffling heavy unwieldy bags is like, without sufficient ventilation, day in and day out. You know the cage(s) like the back of your hand. If you must count the bags, it's only for the benefit of the person supervising you who happens to be a stickler for the rules. It may be wrong to cut corners, but that's human nature. Now, a question for all you armchair numismatists lurking about out there in cyberland:  are you ready to give me a hand verifying the count of all 3,600 bags in the cage next to this one?  ]

There was probably more corner cutting going on than anyone could imagine.  Hard to say how many times employees just said, "Yeah. They're all there."  to keep from moving those big stacks.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Hoghead515

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/29/2022 at 7:47 PM, Hoghead515 said:

There was probably more corner cutting going on than anyone could imagine.  Hard to say how many times employees just said, "Yeah. They're all there."  to keep from moving those big stacks.

There wouldn't have been a need to go back and start from Bag #1 to do an updated inventory.  As long as each shelf or storage barrel or whatever was untouched, you just go by what changed "up front."  It was tough to get to the back of the cages...no walk room....so the only coins that tended to move were upfront.

With the cages locked and with the vault having time and combination locks, it's unreal that an entire bag of 1928's were stolen.  A few loose coins, I could see someone getting them out.  An entire bag....250 coins at one time....or worse, a few coins a day over a few weeks ?

Hard to believe.