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Von NotHaus Pieces Are Okay
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15 posts in this topic

There has been recent discussion (spelled “loud disagreement”) about counterfeiting and what it is and is not. In addition to the gentleman from Colorado and his numerous would-be detractors here, there are the Norfed Liberty Bernard VonNothaus pieces. I said they are now just fine to own, buy, and sell. Here is the visible evidence:

3ACCB53C-B248-488B-8628-BEBDC5FC8FC4.thumb.png.e8c5bd7a75c7507c1fc0cd15869d4561.png

The dealer is Matt Dinger of Lost Dutchman Rare Coins in Indianapolis. “They’re baaaaaack!”

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On 11/17/2022 at 2:55 PM, VKurtB said:

There has been recent discussion (spelled “loud disagreement”) about counterfeiting and what it is and is not. In addition to the gentleman from Colorado and his numerous would-be detractors here, there are the Norfed Liberty Bernard VonNothaus pieces. I said they are now just fine to own, buy, and sell. Here is the visible evidence:

3ACCB53C-B248-488B-8628-BEBDC5FC8FC4.thumb.png.e8c5bd7a75c7507c1fc0cd15869d4561.png

The dealer is Matt Dinger of Lost Dutchman Rare Coins in Indianapolis. “They’re baaaaaack!”

...actually better than most US mint issues...

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To be fair about it, these are caricatures which could never be mistaken for the real thing.  What I'd like to do--or would have liked to have done, is get me a Squared Quarter. Now that's making a statement.  These pieces are just fine with me. So fine in fact, I wouldn't be especially interested in owning one.

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On 11/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

To be fair about it, these are caricatures which could never be mistaken for the real thing.  What I'd like to do--or would have liked to have done, is get me a Squared Quarter. Now that's making a statement.  These pieces are just fine with me. So fine in fact, I wouldn't be especially interested in owning one.

He was literally tried, convicted, imprisoned, and subsequently released for making these. The confiscated pieces have all been returned to the people from which they were confiscated. In the SAME PERIOD, Dan Carr was not even pursued legally. 

Edited by VKurtB
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I thought the distinctive name and product sounded familiar. There is apparently a great deal more to this case than meets the eye. I had to refresh my recollection so I cheated, and looked it up. Herewith, the dirt...

The government charged von NotHaus with among other things, the circulation of medallions as "legal tender."  That is a Federal crime.  

He was a co-founder of the Royal Hawaiian Mint Company and Cannabis Spiritual Center. During the 2011 Federal criminal trial he helmed the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code (NORFED). You will excuse me if this seemingly simple matter suddenly became "curiouser and curiouser," as Alice in Wonderland once said.  

The original sentence of 15 years, a $250,000 fine and confiscation of 500 lbs. of silver and 40-50 ozs. in gold,----he sold $85 million in Liberty dollars----was reduced, and reduced again, to six months' house arrest + 3 years' probation. But the matter did not end there. There's more. The FBI and the U.S. Attorney characterized him as having engaged in a unique form of "domestic terrorism."  The Government does not throw terms around like that lightly.

From the U.S. Attorney's office... "while these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country."

Then you have some guy named Perlman picking up where von NautHaus left off----except he is (or perhaps was) a proponent of cryptocurrency. Hmm.

I take it you vote Not Guilty.  [A member of note, presumably speaking in ex cathedrs, in the interim has voted, Guilty.]  Without getting into the nitty-gritty,  I am inclined to give the Government the benefit of the doubt. The design elements of the coin, its intent, this affiliation with NORFED (that's one way to get unwanted official scrutiny) the marijuana, have all clouded my thinking.  In reading the literature, and in particular, the comeback attempts (there was a 3rd not worth getting into) I see a suggestion of manipulation and circumvention of some kind.  Any one of these standing along might stand examination, but taken as a whole I am left with the old adage, "where there's smoke, there's fire." Consequently, me believeth there was some measure of justice in the verdict rendered. Should those coins continue to be sold?  The confiscated Liberty dollars were returned, correct?  Yes. The damage, if any, was done. And if there were those who had any doubts about misrepresentation, they have long ago dissipated.

 

 

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I copied this from a CU discussion from January 2022. 
 

Long read/interpretation for the legal department of PCGS.

https://gata.org/files/VonNotHausForfeitureOrder-12-2-2014.pdf

Judge Voorhees makes it very clear that many of the Liberty Dollar specie do not qualify as counterfeit. The first concrete statement confirming this fact is found at the bottom of page 15.
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Judge Voorhees goes on to specify which pieces are clearly NOT counterfeit on page 18.
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On 11/17/2022 at 7:51 PM, RWB said:

Nuthouse is/was a crook, liar and thief, as well as a counterfeiter. Simply out to con people out of money. If he'd been "coning" roosters that would be ok....

Overall, and I have given this matter my complete undivided attention, I am left with the distinct impression this guy was not being forthright and direct, tried to pull a fast one, and simply got caught test-driving a money-making scheme on trusting people.

If he'd've coined Roosters, unbeknownst to most numismatists, he would have made a poor choice: on either side of the date (except for the very earliest examples) two anti-counterfeiting devices were added. A miniscule torch on one side and a cornucopia (horn of plenty) on the other.  In addition, the edge (sadly, not visible through most encapsulations) features a series of ornate, raised relief, protrusions which would be difficult if not impossible to replicate. That, and precise specs, would make counterfeiting one quite an undertaking but incredibly, counterfeits are known to exist in large part because, being bullion (a nod here to the Great z for pointing this out) they have circulated far and wide amongst a number of nations the people of which are not necessarily well acquainted with them... a Henning nickel would be interesting to own, but a Rooster, not so much.

 

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On 11/18/2022 at 12:31 PM, VKurtB said:

The legality of owning a Henning nickel is still an open question. 

Considering it is unlikely a Henning nickel can be acquired for face value, it is doubtful one would be passed or used in ordinary commerce, hence, no actionable offense would be committed.  Here's the stock law-enforcement response to any allegation relative to the possession and/or sale of this coin, as I magine it would be:

"The complaint will be reviewed when it is received."

The way things are going nowadays, the possession of marijuana is more of an open question than the ownership of this five-cent curiosity.  :roflmao:

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On 11/20/2022 at 11:19 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Considering it is unlikely a Henning nickel can be acquired for face value, it is doubtful one would be passed or used in ordinary commerce, hence, no actionable offense would be committed.  Here's the stock law-enforcement response to any allegation relative to the possession and/or sale of this coin, as I magine it would be:

"The complaint will be reviewed when it is received."

The way things are going nowadays, the possession of marijuana is more of an open question than the ownership of this five-cent curiosity.  :roflmao:

Henning nickels still circulate in the banking system to this very day, QA. There was a very serious question at Rosemont this August as to whether the Treasury Department, who was present, would seize a displayed Henning nickel. They decided no to, because no one who had the authority to decide could be reached. They had previously confiscated an exhibit that had copies of notes that fell within the illegal magnification range. These people may be stupid, but they’re not above throwing their weight around. 

Edited by VKurtB
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It is conceivable a Henning may have, at some point in my life, come into my possession. If one falls into my lap, I will not hesitate to send it to member Hog.  (Truth be told, if I had been in close proximity to that river its creator dumped them in, I would have grabbed as many as I could.)  :facepalm:

The confiscation of banknotes falling within the "unlawful and illegal to possess range," is an embarrassment.  Crane makes the paper/linen to order using a secret formula. One of the first things someone notices about currency is its feel to the touch.  I am aware 'notes get "raised" but any dime-srore clerk wielding an anti-counterfeit pen can defeat the efforts of all but the most determined "thief." I was passed a queer bill years ago, and I was shocked for two reasons:  firstly, the fact that it had been passed to me by a local businessman I knew well, and secondly, the fact that a check cashing place declared it to be counterfeit--and promptly handed the bill back to me!  The standard procedure is to keep the bill and call the Secret Service.

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On 11/20/2022 at 3:54 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It is conceivable a Henning may have, at some point in my life, come into my possession. If one falls into my lap, I will not hesitate to send it to member Hog.  (Truth be told, if I had been in close proximity to that river its creator dumped them in, I would have grabbed as many as I could.)  :facepalm:

The confiscation of banknotes falling within the "unlawful and illegal to possess range," is an embarrassment.  Crane makes the paper/linen to order using a secret formula. One of the first things someone notices about currency is its feel to the touch.  I am aware 'notes get "raised" but any dime-srore clerk wielding an anti-counterfeit pen can defeat the efforts of all but the most determined "thief." I was passed a queer bill years ago, and I was shocked for two reasons:  firstly, the fact that it had been passed to me by a local businessman I knew well, and secondly, the fact that a check cashing place declared it to be counterfeit--and promptly handed the bill back to me!  The standard procedure is to keep the bill and call the Secret Service.

About 15 years ago, I was passed a bad counterfeit by an ATM machine. I was NOT reimbursed. I was out the $20. 

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On 11/20/2022 at 6:32 PM, VKurtB said:

About 15 years ago, I was passed a bad counterfeit by an ATM machine. I was NOT reimbursed. I was out the $20. 

I wouldn't even know who to complain to if it happened to me [and the fact my wife insists on accompanying me everywhere I go, per agreement, per contract (wedding license doh! )] effectively means I have no recourse.  A two-way R/T by bus/subway anywhere, is $5.50 (X 2= $11.00). So, that's out. (I suppose time is money, too.)  Very surprising that would happen at an ATM, but then again, machine malfunctions have disgorged their entire inventory of the denomination involved, but such an "inconvenience" has never happened to me.  :roflmao:

***

Incidentally, on those NotHaus Liberties... I believe I was ready to buy, but something stopped me. Do you recall what the lowest silver denomination was and what the prevailing spot silver price was when introduced?

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