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ANA Board of Govs Meeting Today
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91 posts in this topic

On 11/16/2022 at 12:00 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I discuss and talk about my collection on here a whole lot. I feel safe talking bout it here. But very few people around home know Ive got it. I got several neighbors who would break into my house in a heartbeat to fund their meth habit. They all know we both work and they brave enough to try it if they knew what I had. I dont think anyone on this forum would come from way off to get my small collection but some of my neighbors could walk down and get them we live so close. They robbed bout everyone around.Stole a brand new four wheeler off me back in 2001. Still owed $5,000 on it. Had to pay it off and never got it back. 

Invest in a strong....tough....HEAVY.....safe. (thumbsu

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On 11/19/2022 at 10:47 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

As stated earlier in this column, the Department of Homeland Security has subsumed, in part, the missions of both Customs and Border Patrol and the U.S.S.S. Where two or more agencies share jurisdiction in the enforcement of statutes, an interagency strike force is formed.  Based on the particulars Kurt has provided regarding the chartered functions and duties of the ANA, my feeling is they present a subdued advisory presence to law enforcement investigatory agencies as it relates to coin and currency issues.

We need to understand the impact of IRS regulations. Yes, the ANA does pre-exist the IRS, and some of the suggestions Roger made/makes/ad nauseam were ONCE the types of things the ANA did. But when the IRS came up with the rules for 501(c)3 educational organizations, and ANA chose that status, many previously allowed activities had to cease. And so they have. 

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On 11/20/2022 at 12:56 AM, VKurtB said:

We need to understand the impact of IRS regulations. Yes, the ANA does pre-exist the IRS, and some of the suggestions Roger made/makes/ad nauseam were ONCE the types of things the ANA did. But when the IRS came up with the rules for 501(c)3 educational organizations, and ANA chose that status, many previously allowed activities had to cease. And so they have. 

Unless it's politics or personal enrichment via excessive compensation, the 501(c)-3 rules are very flexible.

What are you saying is off-limits ?

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On 11/20/2022 at 12:11 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Unless it's politics or personal enrichment via excessive compensation, the 501(c)-3 rules are very flexible.

What are you saying is off-limits ?

Taking a law enforcement stance, advocating for or against ANY legislation, and THAT INCLUDES coinage legislation, insisting you’re due a seat on a committee whose membership is specified in federal statute, for example. Now EDUCATING about any of those TO YOUR MEMBERSHIP? That is fine. 

Edited by VKurtB
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This is from irs.gov:

“An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation.

Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying.  For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

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On 11/20/2022 at 1:16 AM, VKurtB said:

Taking a law enforcement stance, advocating for or against ANY legislation, and THAT INCLUDES coinage legislation, insisting you’re due a seat on a committee whose membership is specified in federal statute, for example. Now EDUCATING about any of those TO YOUR MEMBERSHIP? That is fine. 

I do not believe the IRS is going to have a problem with any of those advocacy positions.  Plenty of 501(c)-3's do that all the time.

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On 11/20/2022 at 1:27 AM, VKurtB said:

This is from irs.gov: “An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation.  Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying.  For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

This is boilerplate.  Tax-exempts lobby and support all kinds of legislation all of the time.

Providing direct political assistance to specific political candidates is trickier.  But I suspect your citataion above is outdated or superseded by other clauses.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/20/2022 at 1:16 AM, VKurtB said:

Taking a law enforcement stance, advocating for or against ANY legislation, and THAT INCLUDES coinage legislation

That's preposterous.  That goes to the very nature of the organization.

It would be like colleges and universities not lobbying on educational matters or churches/synagogues not speaking out on legislation or foundations or charities not speaking out.  They do it ALL the time.

Direct endorsements of specific political candidates or lining up with 1 party are the issue, NOT speaking out or lobbying on relevant legislation.  Now, if the ANA decided to campaign in favor of cutting the capital gains tax and using resources and $$$ that would be another thing (although even here if you can prove a link 5-6% was said decades ago to be OK on political spending by the IRS).  But lobbying against sales tax on coin sales -- direct interest and no problem.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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I don't know.  Maybe what the ANA needs is a coin lobby the same way the NRA has a gun lobby.

FROM THE ARCHIVES...

"Is this a secure line?"

"Go ahead, sir."

"Mike, Charlton Heston here."

"Why Charlie, what a nice surprise!"

"Mike, I've known you a long time. I've always been there for you. Now, about that bill before Congress--

"--It'll be DOA in committee. Don't worry about a thing.  You take good care of yourself. Send my regards to Lydia."

🐓:  What the ANA needs is a higher visibility profile and an influential spokesperson with name recognition.

 

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On 11/20/2022 at 8:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

This is boilerplate.  Tax-exempts lobby and support all kinds of legislation all of the time.

Providing direct political assistance to specific political candidates is trickier.  But I suspect your citataion above is outdated or superseded by other clauses.

...nope its current...

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On 11/20/2022 at 10:10 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's preposterous.  That goes to the very nature of the organization.

It would be like colleges and universities not lobbying on educational matters or churches/synagogues not speaking out on legislation or foundations or charities not speaking out.  They do it ALL the time.

Direct endorsements of specific political candidates or lining up with 1 party are the issue, NOT speaking out or lobbying on relevant legislation.  Now, if the ANA decided to campaign in favor of cutting the capital gains tax and using resources and $$$ that would be another thing (although even here if you can prove a link 5-6% was said decades ago to be OK on political spending by the IRS).  But lobbying against sales tax on coin sales -- direct interest and no problem.

...most colleges n universities r not non-profit nor 501(c)-3 eligible....

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On 11/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, zadok said:

...nope its current...

OK, but I'm just saying that the notion that tax-exempts don't lobby or speak out is nonsense.  They do it ALL the time.  Biggest example is churches, esp. black churches.  Synagogues, too (Israel).  

This statement is contradicted by what Kurt posted before it.  It really is saying STOP and GO at the same time:  "Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying.  For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

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On 11/20/2022 at 10:37 AM, zadok said:

...most colleges n universities r not non-profit nor 501(c)-3 eligible....

My understanding is they are tax-exempt and most/all probably have 501(c)-3 status....certainly, their endowments do NOT pay income taxes.

https://www.aau.edu/sites/default/files/AAU Files/Key Issues/Taxation %26 Finance/Tax-Exempt-Status-of-Universities-FINAL.pdf

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/20/2022 at 10:37 AM, zadok said:

...most colleges n universities r not non-profit nor 501(c)-3 eligible....

...i belong to several 501(c)-3 organizations n have served on various committees n boards of directors over the years, the requirements r very non-flexible, in one instance we conducted a charity auction for the benefit of another local organization that was historically related n the irs stepped in because the charity funds collected n donated to the other organization was used in a pac for legislative purposes...we were given a reprimand n threatened with revocation....

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On 11/20/2022 at 10:38 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK, but I'm just saying that the notion that tax-exempts don't lobby or speak out is nonsense.  They do it ALL the time.  Biggest example is churches, esp. black churches.  Synagogues, too (Israel).  

This statement is contradicted by what Kurt posted before it.  It really is saying STOP and GO at the same time:  "Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying.  For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.”

...operative word there is "educational" n many of those churches r presently under scrutiny n possible legal actions as we speak....

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On 11/20/2022 at 10:43 AM, zadok said:

...operative word there is "educational" n many of those churches r presently under scrutiny n possible legal actions as we speak....

Nothing has happened in decades....the key is whether a significant amount of resources and time and $$$ goes to endorsing a specific political candidate.  Talking about ISSUES or lobbying for relevant legislation has always been OK.

Without knowing the details of your organization....the funds you raised under certain conditions were then given to an affiliated organization for other activities....depends on the relative amounts raised and given and for what purpose.

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nothing has happened in decades....the key is whether a significant amount of resources and time and $$$ goes to endorsing a specific political candidate.  Talking about ISSUES or lobbying for relevant legislation has always been OK.

Without knowing the details of your organization....the funds you raised under certain conditions were then given to an affiliated organization for other activities....depends on the relative amounts raised and given and for what purpose.

 

You are engaging in fiction, @GoldFinger1969, just like your buddy @RWB does as a steady diet. Taking a position on ANY legislation ist verboten for educational 501(c)3’s. Just advocating is grounds for loss of tax exempt status. Your desire to limit it to backing CANDIDATES is something you sucked out of your thumb. 
 

The ANA could and has and does prepare educational material on many issues - the Morgan and Peace dollars, counterfeiting, ALL OF IT. But none of it slips the surly bonds of advocacy. The lawyers won’t permit it. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 11/20/2022 at 7:51 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I do not believe the IRS is going to have a problem with any of those advocacy positions.  Plenty of 501(c)-3's do that all the time.

Then you are just wrong. 

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On 11/20/2022 at 7:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

This is boilerplate.  Tax-exempts lobby and support all kinds of legislation all of the time.

Providing direct political assistance to specific political candidates is trickier.  But I suspect your citataion above is outdated or superseded by other clauses.

You can suspect all you want. This is CURRENT information DIRECTLY from the IRS itself. Maybe you investor types have a fast and loose relationship with law. The ANA doesn’t. 

Edited by VKurtB
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The ANA does not and cannot lobby on sales tax matters. The ICTA, NOT A 501(c)3 educational, can and does do that with the ANA’s blessing. Even the Florida United Numismatists cannot. (Not that Florida isn’t already tax friendly.) What the ANA can do, and has, is establish a policy that no ANA show will be held in a sales tax unfriendly state, but they don’t even speak openly about that. 

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On 11/20/2022 at 1:12 PM, VKurtB said:

You are engaging in fiction, @GoldFinger1969, just like your buddy @RWB does as a steady diet. Taking a position on ANY legislation ist verboten for educational 501(c)3’s. Just advocating is grounds for loss of tax exempt status. Your desire to limit it to backing CANDIDATES is something you sucked out of your thumb. 

Sorry, but if you think the colleges, universities, AND their trade organizations (i.e, AAUW) aren't engaged in lobbying, think again.

The AAUW even advocated on blatantly political legislation that had nothing to do with "education" or colleges/universities.  The AFT and NEA both have done it for decades for public education or so they say.

No fiction, Kurt.   Facts....just the facts. (thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/20/2022 at 5:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sorry, but if you think the colleges, universities, AND their trade organizations (i.e, AAUW) aren't engaged in lobbying, think again.

The AAUW even advocated on blatantly political legislation that had nothing to do with "education" or colleges/universities.  The AFT and NEA both have done it for decades for public education or so they say.

No fiction, Kurt.   Facts....just the facts. (thumbsu

Unions are not 501(c)3’s. Not even close. So let’s just drop the NEA and AFT stuff, okay?

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On 11/20/2022 at 1:31 PM, VKurtB said:

You can suspect all you want. This is CURRENT information DIRECTLY from the IRS itself. Maybe you investor types have a fast and loose relationship with law. The ANA doesn’t. 

I guess I have a fast and loose relationship with REALITY. :)

A general descriptive from the IRS does not overule standard practice or an IRS Private Letter Ruling (PLR).  Of which MANY have been granted to the point where it is standard knowledge about what is allowed and what is not allowed.

You think churches aren't lobbying on hunger issues, Kurt ?

You think black churches aren't lobbying on voting rights issues, Kurt ?

You think the NEA isn't speaking out about tuition tax credits or vouchers, Kurt ?

In many cases, they even endorse specific federal/state/local candidates....endorse presidential candidates....run phone banks....etc.

And setting up a 501(c)-4 or other quasi-tax exempt affiliate is a Chinese Wall with no walls.xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/20/2022 at 6:43 PM, VKurtB said:

Unions are not 501(c)3’s. Not even close. So let’s just drop the NEA and AFT stuff, okay?

Right, but the same prohibitions on campaigning are supposed to apply to them.  And they have 501(c)-3 tie-ins.

You think Harvard is paying taxes on their $40 billion endowment ?  You think they aren't taking public policy issues on "diversity".....college pension issues and funding...etc. ?

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Labor unions are under 501(c)5. Aka “special treatment”. And no, what the churches are doing is NOT legal. They get away with it by intent of one party. See “Special Rules Limiting IRS Authority to Audit a Church”, an actual real IRS document. Churches get away with what they do because one party passed special rules for them. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 11/20/2022 at 5:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Right, but the same prohibitions on campaigning are supposed to apply to them.  And they have 501(c)-3 tie-ins.

You think Harvard is paying taxes on their $40 billion endowment ?  You think they aren't taking public policy issues on "diversity".....college pension issues and funding...etc. ?

For Harvard to be allowed to lobby on ANY issue, they must form and operate a “Political Action Committee”. The college at large may not. And PAC contributions, even to Harvard’s PAC, are NEVER tax exempt. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 11/20/2022 at 6:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

🐓:  How do these guys know all this stuff?

Q.A.:  I  have  no  idea . . .

Easy enough. You sit next to the ANA’s legal counsel at ANA events, and ask questions. 

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