A Die Study of Cameo 1936-1942 Proofs - Thoughts Needed! 0

[FlyingAl]

I recently started on a long journey that I wanted to share the start of to get a few thoughts on. What do you guys think of this idea, and should I finish it for all of the coins? Note: the half dollar study is nearly done. I can upload that as well, though I will likely do it as a PDF due to the images not pasting correctly.

Here is my intro for the full die study, followed by the first two cent entries. I did not edit my intro for this post, so it can give you an idea of my view for the finished product.

Here you go!

This is a die study of the known cameo proof coins and their die pairs based on PCGS and NGC certification. This guide’s intention is to serve as a deterrent to counterfeiters who wish to deceive collectors. It can, however, serve as a guide for collectors who wish to search for a coin from dies that had the best details they had to offer. These dies are almost always the dies that produced cameo coins. By being able to match a coin to a die pair that produced cameo coins of a later die state, collectors can obtain a coin with much higher attractiveness than usual for a normal price.

Only coins with verifiable cameo dies and cameo die pairs were included, which required high quality images. One altered coin was discovered in this undertaking, which was a major reason for its production. Such coins can be altered by taking a normal non-cameo coin and adding a solvent to the devices that make them appear white or coppery. When well done, this alteration can be extremely difficult to spot, even for a professional. As such, several coins have made their way into TPGS holders as altered coins, yet they were not spotted as such. The TPGS have been fervently hunting such coins and to correct their errors. The best tool for a collector to avoid this is to use die matching, which can be achieved by use of this guide.. By analyzing the die pairs used in the production of these coins, it is likely that no other altered coin will ever be certified.

The numbers used are Cameo Numbers, abbreviated CA-X. The X will be replaced by the number of the die in the order it appears in the sequence of denomination and year order, commonly referred to as “Redbook order”. All cents will come before nickels and so forth.

For dies discovered or added after the original set of study is complete, their numbers will come after the highest currently known die number. For a coin to be considered, it must be graded as a cameo by PCGS, NGC, or CAC. ANACS and ICG coins will be considered, so long as the contrast can be verified. In addition, another coin from the same die pair must show a similar degree of contrast, though it may not be certified as cameo. This is used as an anti-counterfeiting safeguard.

All information relating to use dates is from Roger Burdette’s work on the subject, titled United States Proof Coins 1936-1942.

Example
CA-X (Cameo Number)
Possible Use Dates: Dates that new die pairs were used or where the die use could be narrowed to a day or set of days.
Die Markers: Markers of each die and images of those markers.
Description and Coins Possible: Description of the coins and coins likely remaining.
Image: Image of a coin. (Usually a TrueView from CoinFacts unless labeled as such.)
.
.
CENTS

1936 Proof Cent 
CA-1
Possible Use Date: September 15th.
Die Markers: Die scratches extending from the right upright of the T in TRUST, impression midway up the N in UNUM.

Description and Coins Possible: There appears to only be one die pair capable of striking proof cameo 1936 cents, but since die records are missing for a large part of the year, one cannot be sure of this. The cent is the only currently known 1936 cameo proof, which makes it quite rare in the series and it commands a substantial premium. Less than ten are likely to exist today.
Image:

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.
.
1937 Proof Cent
CA-2
Possible Use Dates: March 18th, September 8th, October 4th. 
Die Markers: Striations off of the N in ONE and E in AMERICA. Circular die lines on the obverse portrait. 


Description and Coins Possible: A deep cameo reverse is common. One of two known die pairs, this is the more desirable and most contrasted. It is likely that this die produced around twenty cameo coins. Several Ultra Cameo coins were produced from this die pair, which would lead one to believe that this date and denomination is quite common when compared to other cameos. Around 30 cameos probably exist from this die alone.
Image:

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.
.
.
.
Feel free to put any thoughts in a comment - anything you would change or add, or any comments in general. If you were a collector of these coins, what would you want?

As noted, the study is not anywhere near complete. I can also only trace dies that produced cameos for one use cycle - when dies were repolished they often lose their identifying characteristics. There are rare exceptions, but I don't think those exceptions would be of use to a collector.

[Henri Charriere]

With apologies to the OP...

🐓:  I don't believe there would be anything of interest to you in this post, Q, the latest by FlyingAl.

Q.A.:  Why would you say that?

🐓:  Because it's nuts-and-bolts technical, a good read, and thoroughly educational. 👍 

[Henri Charriere]

My unexpurgated thoughts...  in my mind's eye, I see the immediate utility of the results of this tremendous undertaking appealing to the upper, upper crust of the entire universe of coin enthusiasts placing it squarely at the door marked: "INVESTORS," constituting 1/10 of 1% of all hobbyists. (My estimate wholly unsupported by any substantive evidence.)

This is a die study of proof coins, nay, cameo proof coins, nay, known cameo proof coins----and the die pairs based on PCGS and NGC certifications. A microscopic niche if ever there was one...

The Guide's intention: to serve as a deterrent to counterfeiters. This begs the question would counterfeiters devote time and resources to high-end coins which have traditionally remained under the withering scrutiny and now digital radar of practiced numismatists since time immemorial?  I am in accord with the majority opinion which maintains the raw merchandise out there, greatly exceeds the number of coins of all series that have been formally authenticated, certified and encapsulated. But could anyone reasonably assert the same is true for end-zone proofs? There is a difference between proofs unaccounted for and those there is a reasonable expectation shall be discovered in due course.

In the end, the inevitable question will be posed: How many coins are we talking about, in total, here? Before we can venture a guess, we are reminded that this gargantuan project pertains only to dies that produced cameos for a "one use cycle."  

I tell you, FlyingAl, if I were not encumbered with the irrevocable responsibility of caring for my aging wife, I would, without hesitation, volunteer to be your right-hand First Assistant. I am incapable of processing the ins and outs of your massive undertaking, but I am capable of following orders. Just ask the mods.  

I am taking the liberty, heretofore unprecedented, of preemptively awarding you Five Roosters, my highest rating.  🐓 🐓 🐓 🐓 🐓 

[numisport]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:28 PM, FlyingAl said:

I recently started on a long journey that I wanted to share the start of to get a few thoughts on. What do you guys think of this idea, and should I finish it for all of the coins? Note: the half dollar study is nearly done. I can upload that as well, though I will likely do it as a PDF due to the images not pasting correctly.

Here is my intro for the full die study, followed by the first two cent entries. I did not edit my intro for this post, so it can give you an idea of my view for the finished product.

Here you go!

This is a die study of the known cameo proof coins and their die pairs based on PCGS and NGC certification. This guide’s intention is to serve as a deterrent to counterfeiters who wish to deceive collectors. It can, however, serve as a guide for collectors who wish to search for a coin from dies that had the best details they had to offer. These dies are almost always the dies that produced cameo coins. By being able to match a coin to a die pair that produced cameo coins of a later die state, collectors can obtain a coin with much higher attractiveness than usual for a normal price.

Only coins with verifiable cameo dies and cameo die pairs were included, which required high quality images. One altered coin was discovered in this undertaking, which was a major reason for its production. Such coins can be altered by taking a normal non-cameo coin and adding a solvent to the devices that make them appear white or coppery. When well done, this alteration can be extremely difficult to spot, even for a professional. As such, several coins have made their way into TPGS holders as altered coins, yet they were not spotted as such. The TPGS have been fervently hunting such coins and to correct their errors. The best tool for a collector to avoid this is to use die matching, which can be achieved by use of this guide.. By analyzing the die pairs used in the production of these coins, it is likely that no other altered coin will ever be certified.

The numbers used are Cameo Numbers, abbreviated CA-X. The X will be replaced by the number of the die in the order it appears in the sequence of denomination and year order, commonly referred to as “Redbook order”. All cents will come before nickels and so forth.

For dies discovered or added after the original set of study is complete, their numbers will come after the highest currently known die number. For a coin to be considered, it must be graded as a cameo by PCGS, NGC, or CAC. ANACS and ICG coins will be considered, so long as the contrast can be verified. In addition, another coin from the same die pair must show a similar degree of contrast, though it may not be certified as cameo. This is used as an anti-counterfeiting safeguard.

All information relating to use dates is from Roger Burdette’s work on the subject, titled United States Proof Coins 1936-1942.

Example
CA-X (Cameo Number)
Possible Use Dates: Dates that new die pairs were used or where the die use could be narrowed to a day or set of days.
Die Markers: Markers of each die and images of those markers.
Description and Coins Possible: Description of the coins and coins likely remaining.
Image: Image of a coin. (Usually a TrueView from CoinFacts unless labeled as such.)
.
.
CENTS

1936 Proof Cent 
CA-1
Possible Use Date: September 15th.
Die Markers: Die scratches extending from the right upright of the T in TRUST, impression midway up the N in UNUM.

Description and Coins Possible: There appears to only be one die pair capable of striking proof cameo 1936 cents, but since die records are missing for a large part of the year, one cannot be sure of this. The cent is the only currently known 1936 cameo proof, which makes it quite rare in the series and it commands a substantial premium. Less than ten are likely to exist today.
Image:

.
.
.
1937 Proof Cent
CA-2
Possible Use Dates: March 18th, September 8th, October 4th. 
Die Markers: Striations off of the N in ONE and E in AMERICA. Circular die lines on the obverse portrait. 


Description and Coins Possible: A deep cameo reverse is common. One of two known die pairs, this is the more desirable and most contrasted. It is likely that this die produced around twenty cameo coins. Several Ultra Cameo coins were produced from this die pair, which would lead one to believe that this date and denomination is quite common when compared to other cameos. Around 30 cameos probably exist from this die alone.
Image:

.
.
.
.
.
Feel free to put any thoughts in a comment - anything you would change or add, or any comments in general. If you were a collector of these coins, what would you want?

As noted, the study is not anywhere near complete. I can also only trace dies that produced cameos for one use cycle - when dies were repolished they often lose their identifying characteristics. There are rare exceptions, but I don't think those exceptions would be of use to a collector.

This subject is one of my favorites along with Cameo SMS coinage. I would also enjoy any information on 1950, 51 and 52 Cameo proof dies and as there was little or no polishing evident in 1950, 1951 and 1952 years offered some of the most beautiful 2 sided cameos of the early modern years. By the way the image of the '37 cent might be one that was graded Deep Cameo, do you own that coin ? 

[physics-fan3.14]

Al - I absolutely love super-in-depth research of a particular topic well beyond anything available in the mainstream. This is exactly the sort of thing I support to further the study of numismatics. 

I assume that your research has used Roger Burdette and Rick Tomaska as jumping off points? Both wrote groundbreaking books on the subject (in very different eras of numismatic study). 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Am I correct that cameo/mirror proofs came into existence at this time for American coinage ?

I don't believe that before the 1930's that U.S. coinage had that feature (at least not Saints).  Today, all proofs whatever the denomination have that shiny mirror surface.

[GoldFinger1969]

Beautiful coins, BTW.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[robec1347]

On 11/14/2022 at 6:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Am I correct that cameo/mirror proofs came into existence at this time for American coinage ?

I don't believe that before the 1930's that U.S. coinage had that feature (at least not Saints).  Today, all proofs whatever the denomination have that shiny mirror surface.

Didn’t the Indian cent have cameo and mirror finishes? There were also Seated proofs in all denominations with mirrors and cameos. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, robec1347 said:

Didn’t the Indian cent have cameo and mirror finishes? There were also Seated proofs in all denominations with mirrors and cameos. 

True on all counts. 

[RWB]

Polished fields and frosted devices go back to the earliest US master coins. Copied from Soho Mint tokens. It's nothing new or innovative.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/15/2022 at 2:42 PM, RWB said:

Polished fields and frosted devices go back to the earliest US master coins. Copied from Soho Mint tokens. It's nothing new or innovative.

Didn't you state in a back-and-forth on Saint proofs that the mirror-like proofs most of us who started collecting in the 1960's or 1970's associate with a "proof coin"....didn't commence until the 1930's ?

Maybe it was somebody else.

Edited November 15, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Didn't you state in a back-and-forth on Saint proofs that the mirror-like proofs most of us who started collecting in the 1960's or 1970's associate with a "proof coin"....didn't commence until the 1930's ?

Maybe it was somebody else.

I’ll bet it was. Roger would never make that basic an error. Later U.S. gold (Saints, Indians) were the exception to historical norms. 

[FlyingAl]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:03 PM, physics-fan3.14 said:

Al - I absolutely love super-in-depth research of a particular topic well beyond anything available in the mainstream. This is exactly the sort of thing I support to further the study of numismatics. 

I assume that your research has used Roger Burdette and Rick Tomaska as jumping off points? Both wrote groundbreaking books on the subject (in very different eras of numismatic study). 

 

 

Thank you! And yes to answer your question, though there isn't much Tomaska and Roger's book pretty much supplies die tables, everything else is brand new.

[RWB]

On 11/15/2022 at 2:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Didn't you state in a back-and-forth on Saint proofs that the mirror-like proofs most of us who started collecting in the 1960's or 1970's associate with a "proof coin"....didn't commence until the 1930's ?

Maybe it was somebody else.

No, merely that mirror fields had long been associated with "proof" coins. The SG and other "renaissance " coins could not be uniformly polished, hence, not mirror proofs.

[VKurtB]

On 11/15/2022 at 4:07 PM, RWB said:

No, merely that mirror fields had long been associated with "proof" coins. The SG and other "renaissance " coins could not be uniformly polished, hence, not mirror proofs.

Is it the case that the AGE version of the St.Gaudens can do it due to newer technologies, or just a crummy manifestation of the design?