• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

A new CAC grading/slabbing service
1 1

136 posts in this topic

On 10/14/2022 at 4:46 PM, Sandon said:

   I've never understood the hype about CAC.  I have a few coins in holders with green "CAC" stickers and don't find any of them to be particularly "choice for the grade" or undergraded. One is an 1883 "No Cents" Liberty nickel graded PR64 CAM by PCGS the frost of whose devices is so light as to make its "cameo" status arguable.  I also have a 1942 Walking Liberty half dollar in a PCGS "rattler" holder (the original holder used c.1986-89) graded PR64 with a gold CAC sticker.  It is nice and could grade "65" today, but that isn't unusual for certified coins of that vintage.  I bought each of these coins for what I thought was a reasonable price as I evaluated them, always below retail list at the designated grade.  The CAC stickers weren't involved in my calculation of their value.  Nor is the grading service grade when I consider a coin to be overgraded.

   I have long been disheartened about the willingness of many collectors to base purchasing decisions largely or entirely on the name and number on a little paper tag or the presence or absence of a sticker.  Why isn't it better to gain knowledge about the coins one wishes to collect and to base purchasing decisions on that knowledge and on one's own personal judgment and taste?

   

...ur premise is well founded, but prob wont apply to the majority of collectors, only a few can actually comparatively grade coins...im not sure that hype accurately describes the desire to obtain coins so stickered...i personally believe that u need to compare any cac coin against all other coins in same date, mint, grade n not against all other coins same grade....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2022 at 4:46 PM, Sandon said:

I have long been disheartened about the willingness of many collectors to base purchasing decisions largely or entirely on the name and number on a little paper tag or the presence or absence of a sticker.  Why isn't it better to gain knowledge about the coins one wishes to collect and to base purchasing decisions on that knowledge and on one's own personal judgment and taste?   

It's not that....it's that those who do this for a living 24/7 are going to be more knowledgeable than the PT collector who treats this like a hobby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

   Somehow many people enjoyed coin collecting long before grading services existed.  Indeed, I would submit that it was more enjoyable and more of a true "hobby" before one worried whether a grading service would grade a coin 65, 65+, or 66, which service had graded a coin and when, and whether some other company had placed a sticker on the holder.  I certainly enjoyed it in the 1970s when I began collecting, and the 1985 ANA convention which I attended was a great success and memorable to me as the last one without "slabs". (ANACS certificates, their precursors, were, however, abundant.)  Authenticity was more of a concern than the exact grade of a coin, and I thought that third party certification would be of value only for high value coins that are frequently counterfeit or altered.  I couldn't have imagined that millions of modern collector issues would be ripped from their mint packaging and sent to grading services for mass marketing to "collectors" who have little or no interest in really learning anything about coins but think that one graded "70" is really better than one graded "69"!

   Regarding the proposed new "CAC" grading service, I understand that CAC, unlike the current grading services, buys and sells coins it has stickered.  Will the new grading service buy and sell coins it has graded?  Wouldn't such activity constitute a conflict of interest and make the new service more of a dealer than a third-party grading service?

Edited by Sandon
correct typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, Sandon said:

   Somehow many people enjoyed coin collecting long before grading services existed.  Indeed, I would submit that it was more enjoyable and more of a true "hobby" before one worried whether a grading service coin would grade a coin 65, 65+, or 66, which service had graded a coin and when, and whether some other company had placed a sticker on the holder.  I certainly enjoyed it in the 1970s when I began collecting, and the 1985 ANA convention which I attended was a great success and memorable to me as the last one without "slabs". (ANACS certificates, their precursors, were, however, abundant.)  Authenticity was more of a concern than the exact grade of a coin, and I thought that third party certification would be of value only for high value coins that are frequently counterfeit or altered.  I couldn't have imagined that millions of modern collector issues would be ripped from their mint packaging and sent to grading services for mass marketing to "collectors" who have little or no interest in really learning anything about coins but think that one graded "70" is really better than one graded "69"!

It's the nature of society.  People used to gather around a radio -- nobody is doing that today.  Demands on people's time are much greater today than 25 years ago, let alone in the 1970's or 1950's.  Kids aren't reading coin books or spending time at the LCS....they're on the Internet with an iPhone. xD

I agree a rudimentary appreciation for grading and other skills is nice.  But others just want to collect and farm out the DIY approach.

On 10/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, Sandon said:

Regarding the proposed new "CAC" grading service, I understand that CAC, unlike the current grading services, buys and sells coins it has stickered.  Will the new grading service buy and sell coins it has graded?  Wouldn't such activity constitute a conflict of interest and make the new service more of a dealer than a third-party grading service?

I don't believe they will be making a market in their own coins, like they did with CAC stickers.  More details will come out...and things are fluid...so what they say now could change in 6-9 months. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2022 at 9:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's not that....it's that those who do this for a living 24/7 are going to be more knowledgeable than the PT collector who treats this like a hobby.

...for the most part u r correct, at least as far as prices n trends...the truly advanced collector will always be more knowledgeable than the 24/7 dealer in his specific area although the dealer may have more insight into market availability...there r two divergent aspects here, the dealer/business (read profit) n the collector...the unfortunate thing for the collector was the intense financialization of the hobby, this has caused the collector to be sucked into the resale/profit side of the hobby whether they wanted to be or not...its true of almost any hobby, antique cars, caning jars etc coins just happen to realize gigantic prices...last word i heard is that fossilized dinosaur turds havent had much investor input yet so there is still hope for the hobbyist.... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2022 at 10:44 PM, Sandon said:

   Somehow many people enjoyed coin collecting long before grading services existed.  Indeed, I would submit that it was more enjoyable and more of a true "hobby" before one worried whether a grading service coin would grade a coin 65, 65+, or 66, which service had graded a coin and when, and whether some other company had placed a sticker on the holder.  I certainly enjoyed it in the 1970s when I began collecting, and the 1985 ANA convention which I attended was a great success and memorable to me as the last one without "slabs". (ANACS certificates, their precursors, were, however, abundant.)  Authenticity was more of a concern than the exact grade of a coin, and I thought that third party certification would be of value only for high value coins that are frequently counterfeit or altered.  I couldn't have imagined that millions of modern collector issues would be ripped from their mint packaging and sent to grading services for mass marketing to "collectors" who have little or no interest in really learning anything about coins but think that one graded "70" is really better than one graded "69"!

   Regarding the proposed new "CAC" grading service, I understand that CAC, unlike the current grading services, buys and sells coins it has stickered.  Will the new grading service buy and sell coins it has graded?  Wouldn't such activity constitute a conflict of interest and make the new service more of a dealer than a third-party grading service?

...precisely, i do remember the ana in baltimore that year it was a very nice convention with great exhibits as well, yes an abundance of photo certs but as u mentioned no cracking of slabs n yes the general thoughts were that slabbing would be for the higher dollar items...the mass slabbing of modern coins would have been looked upon as ridiculous...im not sure that cac has addressed the buy/sell of cac cert coins yet....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 9:13 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Funny, I actually have a fossilized dinosaur turd in my office in my rock collection.

C'mon now, if in fact you do, why aren't you referring to it by its proper name:  coprolite! 

Nothing to be as ashamed of. One of these sold for $10,000+ in 2014, so there appears to be a market for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sandon:

Irrefutable facts, across-the-board. The whole spiel.  My sentiments exactly!  In the civilized world, our nit-picky preoccupation and split hairs' approach in determining what constitutes MS-69 and its distinction from its MS-70 counterpart, is regarded with curiosity--and as a form of mental illness. Yes, I too, enjoyed the good old days when collecting was enjoyable.  How this bodes for a now investor-driven hobby, remains to be seen...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 8:37 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

C'mon now, if in fact you do, why aren't you referring to it by its proper name:  coprolite! 

Nothing to be as ashamed of. One of these sold for $10,000+ in 2014, so there appears to be a market for them.

We had some in a display case at the state Capitol building showing fossil sites throughout the Commonwealth. I posted a picture of a sample with the caption, “We got some old sh*t up here in this Capitol”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 11:51 AM, VKurtB said:

We had some in a display case at the state Capitol building showing fossil sites throughout the Commonwealth. I posted a picture of a sample with the caption, “We got some old sh*t up here in this Capitol”.

...they had some new sh*t there as well....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 11:51 AM, VKurtB said:

.... I posted a picture of a sample with the caption, “We got some old sh*t up here in this Capitol”.

Shameful. Absolutely shameful!  :roflmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2022 at 4:30 PM, VKurtB said:

Contrary to popular opinion, John Albanese is NOT immortal, and he’s showing signs of age. CAC had to end eventually, because everybody dies. His biggest challenge is building a staff that he can stand and who can stand him. Let’s call them “worshippers”. It’s as accurate as any other term. Having both incumbents owned by private equity was bound to become an issue for somebody with deep pockets. 

The so-called “biggest challenge” you mentioned probably won’t be much of a challenge, at all. Almost everyone who actually knows John, likes him as much as or more than his “worshipers” from afar. I say that as someone who has known him for more than 40 years, as a former employee, a friend and someone who has seen him interact with dozens of collectors and dealers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 2:59 PM, MarkFeld said:

The so-called “biggest challenge” you mentioned probably won’t be much of a challenge, at all. Almost everyone who actually knows John, likes him as much as or more than his “worshipers” from afar. I say that as someone who has known him for more than 40 years, as a former employee, a friend and someone who has seen him interact with dozens of collectors and dealers. 

Mark, it appears that the new grading service is going to be a niche, focused, high-end servicer of U.S. coins.  Would you agree ?

Granted, they can always grow to include lower-priced, modern, and foreign coins....but that seems years away.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 2:21 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, it appears that the new grading service is going to be a niche, focused, high-end servicer of U.S. coins.  Would you agree ?

Granted, they can always grow to include lower-priced, modern, and foreign coins....but that seems years away.

 

No, I wouldn’t agree that it will be a “niche, focused high-end servicer..”.
I think they anticipate grading lower grade, as well as lower value coins, not just “high-end” and high value examples.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2022 at 6:25 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Considering the value of a CAC bean, I'm not so sure.

What exactly is the value of the bean? Long before there was CAC, nicer for the grade coins traded at a premium. 

Pre-CAC, if there were 10 coins of the same grade in an auction, they'd sell for $800 (dogs), $1000 (average), and $1400 (high end).

Post-CAC, if there were 10 coins of the same grade in an auction, they'd sell for $800 (dogs), $1000 (average), and $1400 (high end, but has a CAC sticker).

Fools jump up and down to say this is proof that CAC coins bring a premium. 

Beans may help people who can't grade or aren't onsite to sort the nicer coins from the average, but whether or not the bean creates a premium is debatable.

 

On 10/14/2022 at 9:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Demands on people's time are much greater today than 25 years ago, let alone in the 1970's or 1950's.

Nope, that's just something old fogies like to say. Just like in the 1950's you had to walk to school uphill in both directions....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 10:02 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Coprolite is the correct term.  It came in a box of fossils from National Geographic.  It was not expensive at all.

Perhaps yours wasn't certified.  :roflmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 5:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Speaking of beans....anybody here seen any Saints with a Gold Bean ?

I have never seen any, much less know whether any exist, but what would such an embellishment on a coin translate into in terms of price or premium, percentage-wise?  Go ahead, give it your best shot. I want to hear the internet break.  :makepoint:  :roflmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 4:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Speaking of beans....anybody here seen any Saints with a Gold Bean ?

Maybe there are just VERRRRRY few gold coins that are strong for the grade. I tend to agree. Most U.S. gold coins I’ve seen are very iffy for the grade on the label. If foreign gold got the same excessively generous treatment the U.S. gold seems to get, Quintus may have several MS71’s. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@FlyingAl:

As it would be poor form to delve into financial considerations, allow me to congratulate you on your fine acquisitions. While I have only a general knowledge of the series, recent prices realized at auctions seem to suggest you, or yours, will get a handsome return on your investments.  Thank you for sharing these fine examples with the membership!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 8:42 PM, FlyingAl said:

They exist.

image.png.b9df3e70f3287d999fedbf97a9b92089.png

MS-63 is my all-time favorite grade. (I have no CAC coins.)  Incidentally, the sound you heard was a stress fracture in the internet. We do not get to see such treasures very often.   :roflmao:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2022 at 7:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@FlyingAl:

As it would be poor form to delve into financial considerations, allow me to congratulate you on your fine acquisitions. While I have only a general knowledge of the series, recent prices realized at auctions seem to suggest you, or yours, will get a handsome return on your investments.  Thank you for sharing these fine examples with the membership!

I own neither of these coins, rather they were the fruits of a quick google search to answer your question. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have only one NGC slab with a CAC green bean ( $5 U.S. gold MS63) but I didn't buy it for the sticker. It's nice it's there, but doesn't mean too much for me. What is a problem is the slab is older and I would one day like to upgrade to an edge view holder, but doing so would lose the CAC sticker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
1 1