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A new CAC grading/slabbing service
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136 posts in this topic

On 10/16/2022 at 9:09 AM, centinel said:

I have only one NGC slab with a CAC green bean ( $5 U.S. gold MS63) but I didn't buy it for the sticker. It's nice it's there, but doesn't mean too much for me. What is a problem is the slab is older and I would one day like to upgrade to an edge view holder, but doing so would lose the CAC sticker.

This is incorrect, however what you could lose by having the coin reholdered is value.   Depending on how old the holder is you could lose resale value by placing the coin into a new holder.   Astute collectors know that coins in older holders are likely stable and any doctoring that might have been done would/will have already shown itself.   But a coin in a new holder may have been freshly doctored and could turn in the future.   Many people wrongly think that the only reason collectors seek out old holders is for the upgrade potential, but that is only one of many reasons that old holders are valued by collectors.   So if the holder has value you will not only incur the costs (and risks) of multiple shipping and the fees at each service, but the possibility of less demand and value when you decide to sell the coin at some time. 

Having said that, if you decide that you must send your coin in to be reholdered by NGC you can then resubmit to CAC with a copy of your reholder paperwork to NGC showing the original cert number, CAC will charge a $3 fee to reapply the sticker assuming the grade stays the same.

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On 10/15/2022 at 3:42 PM, MarkFeld said:

No, I wouldn’t agree that it will be a “niche, focused high-end servicer..”.
I think they anticipate grading lower grade, as well as lower value coins, not just “high-end” and high value examples.

But I think JA acknowledged finding quality graders right off the bat will be difficult, no ?

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On 10/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, MarkFeld said:

There’s a procedure in place to be able to have a CAC sticker applied to a new holder if the cert number is the same (or even if it isn’t, under certain conditions).

🐓:  Yes, it's called a fee. :roflmao:

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On 10/15/2022 at 4:16 PM, gmarguli said:

What exactly is the value of the bean? Long before there was CAC, nicer for the grade coins traded at a premium. 

Pre-CAC, if there were 10 coins of the same grade in an auction, they'd sell for $800 (dogs), $1000 (average), and $1400 (high end). Post-CAC, if there were 10 coins of the same grade in an auction, they'd sell for $800 (dogs), $1000 (average), and $1400 (high end, but has a CAC sticker).  Fools jump up and down to say this is proof that CAC coins bring a premium.  Beans may help people who can't grade or aren't onsite to sort the nicer coins from the average, but whether or not the bean creates a premium is debatable.

There are plenty of studies which confirm that the Green stickers DO create a premium price (rightly or wrongly).  And while viewing coins with a sharp eye pre-CAC might have resulted in the 3 price ranges you cited, it's debatable if the high-end premium was as high as you state.  The price range might have been $800, $1,000 and $1,200. 

On 10/15/2022 at 4:16 PM, gmarguli said:

Nope, that's just something old fogies like to say. Just like in the 1950's you had to walk to school uphill in both directions....

I don't think anybody doubts that there are more ways to occupy oneself as a teenager today than 30 or 50 or 70 years ago.  It's self-evident. (thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 10/16/2022 at 12:09 PM, centinel said:

What is a problem is the slab is older and I would one day like to upgrade to an edge view holder, but doing so would lose the CAC sticker.

I think there's a way around that as explained by Mark and Coinbuf.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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I'll bet that there are some people (myself included) who are really glad that they have finished their Registry sets.  Tough coins are rare enough and finding them is very difficult.  I know  PCGS won't allow the new CAC graded coins into their Registry and I am UNSURE what NGC's stance will be.  I can, now, just collect what I like, while sitting back and watching the craziness unfold.  FWIW-I completely support CAC grading and KNOW that they will do well and be successful.  But let's face it......This will change the whole dynamic, especially, for Registry participants.   

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On 10/31/2022 at 11:20 AM, Walkerfan said:

I'll bet that there are some people (myself included) who are really glad that they have finished their Registry sets.  Tough coins are rare enough and finding them is very difficult.  I know  PCGS won't allow the new CAC graded coins into their Registry and I am UNSURE what NGC's stance will be.  I can, now, just collect what I like, while sitting back and watching the craziness unfold.  FWIW-I completely support CAC grading and KNOW that they will do well and be successful.  But let's face it......This will change the whole dynamic, especially, for Registry participants.   

...somewhat true...but u would still have the option of buying a cac graded coin n cross it over to whatever ur registry set is....

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On 10/31/2022 at 1:02 PM, zadok said:

...somewhat true...but u would still have the option of buying a cac graded coin n cross it over to whatever ur registry set is....

You're correct.  But, I've never liked the 'crossover game'.  It is risky, time-consuming and unnecessarily expensive.  

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On 10/31/2022 at 1:20 PM, Walkerfan said:

You're correct.  But, I've never liked the 'crossover game'.  It is risky, time-consuming and unnecessarily expensive.  

That it is.  If I were 70 years younger (had you there for a moment, didn't I? :roflmao:) I would consider my options, but fortunately I got excellent advice on this Forum regarding same, and decided to keep things right where they were, and remain. The one gold 🐓 I had that never made it into a Set Registry, my personal favorite, I gifted to a friend.  In my mind, if ever there was a viable candidate for CAC consideration, that one would have been it, but that's water under the bridge. Interestingly, what I find most attractive in a coin, may not amplify its eligiblility for CAC consideration.  I have no opinion of the service either way.

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On 11/3/2022 at 12:09 AM, Cat Bath said:

I wonder what he'll call his 4th TPG after he has another hissy fit and leaves CAC?

I believe ABC and XYZ are available--for an additional fee!  :makepoint:

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Had dinner at a nice restaurant the other evening. They later sent me a note asking me to "Grade their Service." I don't have any stickers...Is that what the restaurant wanted? I gave them little stars and numbers -- but no stickers. Why would more grading services be needed? The present ones have screwed thing up enough, as it is.

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On 11/3/2022 at 11:12 AM, RWB said:

Had dinner at a nice restaurant the other evening. They later sent me a note asking me to "Grade their Service." I don't have any stickers...Is that what the restaurant wanted? I gave them little stars and numbers -- but no stickers. Why would more grading services be needed? The present ones have screwed thing up enough, as it is.

Well, the debbie downer approach is one way of looking at this new venture.   However, TPG's are a part of the market and at this point are not going away, and in most areas of consumer goods more competition is better than less.   So for myself I prefer to have a hopeful and positive approach to this new CAC grading operation over your view.

And from what I have read you should actually like (as much as you can like any TPG) the new CAC grading company as their grading approach will be the closest to your way of grading.   From all I have read JA does not plan to embrace the current market grading that the top two services currently employ, recently I read or heard on one of the videos JA discussing coins with weak strikes.   This is not a direct quote but the basic concept of what he said was that a coin which would otherwise grade as MS66 but has a weak strike would be graded lower, perhaps as low as MS64.   He mentions a very well known dealer/writer (sorry do not recall his name) who disagrees with him and told JA that a coin like that should be graded as MS66 with weak strike denoted on the slab label.   It is that dealer's type of thought process that has led to the current market grading and gradeflation problem in the hobby.   So really, while I never expect you to embrace any TPG, if CACG is successful in moving the grading curve back to more like it was when the TPG's first started it would in fact be much more in line with your concept of grading.

The big questions are, will dealers and collectors embrace this different standard of grading, and will it be sustainable over time.

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On 11/3/2022 at 2:12 PM, RWB said:

Had dinner at a nice restaurant the other evening. They later sent me a note asking me to "Grade their Service." I don't have any stickers...Is that what the restaurant wanted? I gave them little stars and numbers -- but no stickers. Why would more grading services be needed? The present ones have screwed thing up enough, as it is.

Re restaurant service, in the old Ripley's Believe It or Not! series, Robert Ripley [or perhaps his life-long research assistant] suggested the word "tip" is an acronym for To Insure Promptness.  Many years ago, a private source "minted" poker chip-like tokens that read, "The tip would be larger, if the service were better."  That, today, would constitute a grade. The alternative is a scathing review or one filled with effervescence.  :whistle:

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On 11/3/2022 at 4:16 PM, Coinbuf said:

The big questions are, will dealers and collectors embrace this different standard of grading, and will it be sustainable over time.

I don't have your confidence. Our cattle left the corral long ago and just now someone might have remembered to close the gate.

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On 11/3/2022 at 5:02 PM, RWB said:

I don't have your confidence. Our cattle left the corral long ago and just now someone might have remembered to close the gate.

Yeah, but were the cattle branded?  🤔 

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On 10/15/2022 at 4:16 PM, gmarguli said:

.... Just like in the 1950's you had to walk to school uphill in both directions....

I find it difficult to believe you attended the same high school I did, but be that as it may, if you haven't been back since, it may warm the cockles of your heart to know the larger hill on 67th Avenue between Yellowstone Boulevard and 99th Street is no longer a mud rut having been paved over in the late 1960's, sometime before I allegedly graduated.  :roflmao:

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On 11/3/2022 at 2:02 PM, RWB said:

I don't have your confidence. Our cattle left the corral long ago and just now someone might have remembered to close the gate.

Not to worry, if you had my level of confidence I'd be more than just shocked.  lol

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On 11/2/2022 at 11:09 PM, Cat Bath said:

I wonder what he'll call his 4th TPG after he has another hissy fit and leaves CAC?

“I don’t care who y’are, that there’s” more likely than not. 

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On 11/2/2022 at 11:09 PM, Cat Bath said:

I wonder what he'll call his 4th TPG after he has another hissy fit and leaves CAC?

What an off-base and asinine post. Since he hasn’t had one “hissy fit”, it would be impossible to have “another”. A true “hissy fit” is when someone like yourself has had poor results at CAC and makes numerous negative posts about them.

Edited by MarkFeld
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On 11/3/2022 at 4:16 PM, Coinbuf said:

And from what I have read you should actually like (as much as you can like any TPG) the new CAC grading company as their grading approach will be the closest to your way of grading.   From all I have read JA does not plan to embrace the current market grading that the top two services currently employ, recently I read or heard on one of the videos JA discussing coins with weak strikes. 

That's interesting because the CAC stickers were pretty much given out for grades consistent with market grading.

On 11/3/2022 at 4:16 PM, Coinbuf said:

This is not a direct quote but the basic concept of what he said was that a coin which would otherwise grade as MS66 but has a weak strike would be graded lower, perhaps as low as MS64.   He mentions a very well known dealer/writer (sorry do not recall his name) who disagrees with him and told JA that a coin like that should be graded as MS66 with weak strike denoted on the slab label.   It is that dealer's type of thought process that has led to the current market grading and gradeflation problem in the hobby.   So really, while I never expect you to embrace any TPG, if CACG is successful in moving the grading curve back to more like it was when the TPG's first started it would in fact be much more in line with your concept of grading. The big questions are, will dealers and collectors embrace this different standard of grading, and will it be sustainable over time.

If the strike for a particular coin or year or mint is "weak" throughout all the coins, then it's really not held against the coin compared to a year or mint that has a "strong" strike.  Having split grades (obverse/reverse) or mentioning strike separately is just confusing collectors and Balkanizing the hobby.

JA is well-respected but given his past at NGC and CAC, I don't see how he can suddenly "harden" grading even though I am completely in favor of ending gradeflation. 

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@MarkFeld:

No roosters. Only me speaking to you directly...

I believe it safe to say, based on prior posts ---- intemperate outburst notwithstanding---- that you and J.A. enjoyed a very special, long and cordial relationship that has evolved over time on a shared mutual interest in numismatic activities.  That's the sense I get. Quite admirable sticking up for a friend, I must say!  (thumbsu

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On 11/3/2022 at 7:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's interesting because the CAC stickers were pretty much given out for grades consistent with market grading.

There are some layers to the stickers, more than just confirming market grading.   Keep in mind that JA was primarily making a market and in effect prescreening coins with the sticker business.    It grew to be something larger than that but when started CAC was simply a mechanism to find the best coins with the hope to buy and sell those A and B coins. If your goal is to be a market buyer then you have to work with what that current market is, the new CACG is slightly different in that it exists not to be a market buyer but rather to act as a TPG.   I think that many people are trying to equate CAC to CACG, but these are not the same organizations with the same goals.  So, it's important to remember, different goals result in different methods and standards.

On 11/3/2022 at 7:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If the strike for a particular coin or year or mint is "weak" throughout all the coins, then it's really not held against the coin compared to a year or mint that has a "strong" strike. 

Depends on your view, I disagree with your assertion that some coins that are known to have striking issues should not have that held against those coins in the grading room, it is that exact type of thinking that has led down the rabbit hole of market grading.   In fact, it should be held against it, when there is a certain year or mint where the production was so poor that the best coin is no better than MS64 because of striking issues then so be it, MS64 is the top.   Giving a lofty grade of MS66 or MS67 to a garbage looking coin that is the result of poor craftsmanship and quality is (in my mind) the same as giving out participation trophies, I don't believe in the theory that everyone is a winner because they showed up.

On 11/3/2022 at 7:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

JA is well-respected but given his past at NGC and CAC, I don't see how he can suddenly "harden" grading even though I am completely in favor of ending gradeflation. 

It can work, but only if the collectors and dealers accept it, that is going to be a very big wall to climb over, time will tell.

Edited by Coinbuf
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Oh this is great news for my sticker-ing service!!!  everyone send me your coins!!!  $24.99 per coin.. Or if you prefer i can send you your own kit for $19.95 and if you enter the promo code COINS i will give you $5 off your first purchase,   remember depending on the color you order price will be adjusted accordingly.  :) 

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On 11/3/2022 at 10:56 PM, Coinbuf said:

There are some layers to the stickers, more than just confirming market grading.   Keep in mind that JA was primarily making a market and in effect prescreening coins with the sticker business.    It grew to be something larger than that but when started CAC was simply a mechanism to find the best coins with the hope to buy and sell those A and B coins. If your goal is to be a market buyer then you have to work with what that current market is, the new CACG is slightly different in that it exists not to be a market buyer but rather to act as a TPG.   I think that many people are trying to equate CAC to CACG, but these are not the same organizations with the same goals.  So, it's important to remember, different goals result in different methods and standards.

Depends on your view, I disagree with your assertion that some coins that are known to have striking issues should not have that held against those coins in the grading room, it is that exact type of thinking that has led down the rabbit hole of market grading.   In fact, it should be held against it, when there is a certain year or mint where the production was so poor that the best coin is no better than MS64 because of striking issues then so be it, MS64 is the top.   Giving a lofty grade of MS66 or MS67 to a garbage looking coin that is the result of poor craftsmanship and quality is (in my mind) the same as giving out participation trophies, I don't believe in the theory that everyone is a winner because they showed up.

It can work, but only if the collectors and dealers accept it, that is going to be a very big wall to climb over, time will tell.

...my understanding was that originally coins were stickered based on comparison of all other graded coins with that date n not against all other coins within that series?...could be wrong, have been before....

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On 11/4/2022 at 7:55 AM, zadok said:

...my understanding was that originally coins were stickered based on comparison of all other graded coins with that date n not against all other coins within that series?...could be wrong, have been before....

I think that in general, grading (including CAC assessments) is based on a combination of how a given coin stacks up against others of the same date, as well as those of the same type. 

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