Diagnostics for '36 PR, '37PR, and '27 SP Buffalo Nickels? 0

[Taylor7]

Are there any diagnostics that aren't ambiguous? Is being "shiny" enough for the brilliant proofs? Any die chips or polishing lines or features on the design that really make the difference clear?

I know when looking at UNC coins the wideness of the rim is an obvious difference, but I'm more interested in diagnostics that would still be clear with moderate wear. 

Thanks

[RWB]

The book "United States Proof Coins 1936 – 1942" has answers to all your questions. It includes a searchable PDF version on CD-ROM.

(PS: I researched and wrote the book.)

[VKurtB]

Roger’s book is the most thorough way to search this, but spend some time carefully Googling in the meantime. I know this answer is unsatisfying, but at least on the proofs, once you’ve seen one, you’ll know. The ‘27 is a more difficult subject. 

[FlyingAl]

On 10/9/2022 at 7:19 PM, VKurtB said:

Roger’s book is the most thorough way to search this, but spend some time carefully Googling in the meantime. I know this answer is unsatisfying, but at least on the proofs, once you’ve seen one, you’ll know. The ‘27 is a more difficult subject. 

On the contrary, I'd say that answer is pretty satisfying. It pretty much sums up what I was thinking, with the possible exception fo the '36 Satin Buff.

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:05 PM, FlyingAl said:

On the contrary, I'd say that answer is pretty satisfying. It pretty much sums up what I was thinking, with the possible exception fo the '36 Satin Buff.

Yes, getting the chance to see one of those in your hand is tougher than the brilliant ones are. And the ‘27SP is really tough to get into your hands. I have never held or seen one of those. And I get around!

[Taylor7]

does anyone know of at least a youtube video of someone handling a graded example? Much easier to see the difference in texture that way. I say graded because like with lots of other rare coins there are plenty of delusional, mistaken, or outright scammers on youtube claiming to have a proof peace dollar or aluminum cent and handling it raw with no gloves, lol. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:16 PM, Taylor7 said:

does anyone know of at least a youtube video of someone handling a graded example? Much easier to see the difference in texture that way. I say graded because like with lots of other rare coins there are plenty of delusional, mistaken, or outright scammers on youtube claiming to have a proof peace dollar or aluminum cent and handling it raw with no gloves, lol. 

I would urge you to be cautious (not saying don’t do it, just be cautious) learning about these special coins through photographs or even videos. Make it a goal to see these “in the flesh”. This is not about ill intent. It’s just that what makes these pieces special doesn’t always translate well to 2D depictions. 

[Sandon]

   Because of the risk that someone could try to pass off a polished or plated circulation strike as a proof, I'd recommend that you only consider one certified by a reputable grading service such as NGC, PCGS or ANACS.  I don't know of videos showing these coins, but there are many photos of specimens, such as on the NGC Coin Explorer, PCGS Coinfacts, and the auction archives of the websites of major numismatic auction houses such as Heritage and Stacks Bowers.  I don't recall these later proofs having broader borders than circulation strikes, unlike the 1913-16 matte proofs.  However, the edge tends to be sharper (less beveled) than on circulation strikes, as well as the strike. 

   I've never heard of one of these being offered with "moderate wear", but it's possible that a few so impaired pieces could exist.  Hopefully, RWB's book would have diagnostics that would remain after the proof surface has worn off.

   I agree with VKurtB that no photo (or video) can fully do justice to any coin.  Try to go to coin shows or other venues where you can see the coins in person.

   Here are the photos (courtesy of Stacks Bowers Galleries) of the 1937 NGC graded PF66 that I purchased earlier this year:

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sandon

[FlyingAl]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:16 PM, Taylor7 said:

does anyone know of at least a youtube video of someone handling a graded example? Much easier to see the difference in texture that way. I say graded because like with lots of other rare coins there are plenty of delusional, mistaken, or outright scammers on youtube claiming to have a proof peace dollar or aluminum cent and handling it raw with no gloves, lol. 

You can probably look up "1937 proof nickel pcgs" and a certified example in a video will pop up. I know there's a video from a well respected video of a CAM example on Youtube. 

[VKurtB]

Here’s the problem regarding the 1927 Special Strike. It is believed that there are only 3 in existence, and all 3 are in PCGS plastic. Two are graded SP66 and one SP65. One of the 66’s is heavier toned than the other. 

[RWB]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:16 AM, Taylor7 said:

does anyone know of at least a youtube video of someone handling a graded example? Much easier to see the difference in texture that way. I say graded because like with lots of other rare coins there are plenty of delusional, mistaken, or outright scammers on youtube claiming to have a proof peace dollar or aluminum cent and handling it raw with no gloves, lol. 

A 1927 nickel struck from chromium plated dies has a shiny, satin-like surface on both sides. If examined under 20+x magnification the surface has numerous fine cracks in the plating. This was the mint's first experiment and was made using second hand equipment from BEP. In the 1930s foreign coinage dies were routinely chromium plated to improve surface hardness and give longer die life. Some of the US proof coin dies were also plated. In 1943 many cent dies were chrome plated because they were less likely to clog from compacted zinc dust. All of the dies that were used in foreign or domestic coinage were plated by the "Bureau of Standards" in Washington D.C. until the 1950s.

 

Today elemental sputter deposition is used to produce a much thinner but stronger die coating.

Edited October 10, 2022 by RWB

[DWLange]

Here's the NGC photo of a 1927 SP when all five were in NGC holders:

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/united-states/nickels/buffalo-five-cents-1913-1938/13998/1927-5c-sp/

[EagleRJO]

I am just curious about the profound interest in such a rare coin with a virtual zero chance of finding a raw one in the wild.

Take any YT vids of hitting the jackpot finding a raw one with lumps of salt (not just grains). 😉

Edited October 10, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Taylor7]

I didn't realize just how low the population was when I asked. I'm more interested in distinguishing a polished coin from a brilliant proof, and a satin/matte proof from a business strike. What features of the coin do you see the most difference in? Sorry I can't afford to buy another book right now, I was just hoping to have more experienced coin collectors point out a specific part of the coin with a striking difference. Pun intended. 

[EagleRJO]

See the post above by Sandon who provided some very good advice as well as sources for pictures of the coins you are interested in.

I think the books become a little less important if you are not trying to find diagnostics for super rare coins, but check with your local library (you know, that big building with all the books in it ... 😆). If they don't have a copy, which they prob don't, they can usually arrange to get or borrow one with a little time.

[Sandon]

  .  A coin that has been polished or plated, even if unworn, still has a different "look" from a mirror proof, which can be seen when the two are compared but can't be put in words.  (One clue would be that any marks or scratches on a mirror proof probably wouldn't have the mirror surface, while those on a plated or highly polished coin likely would.)  Matte proof coins (not just nickels) of the 1908-16 era have a finely grainy surface that is different from the usually frosty luster of an uncirculated regular strike, as well as a broader than usual border.  Both types of proofs usually have sharper or more squared off edges than circulation strikes.   Unfortunately, one can't fully learn how to recognize these characteristics without looking at the actual coins.  

[RWB]

On 10/10/2022 at 7:50 PM, Sandon said:

Matte proof coins (not just nickels) of the 1908-16 era have a finely grainy surface that is different from the usually frosty luster of an uncirculated regular strike, as well as a broader than usual border.  Both types of proofs usually have sharper or more squared off edges than circulation strikes.   Unfortunately, one can't fully learn how to recognize these characteristics without looking at the actual coins. 

The only "matte proof" coins from that era are the cent and nickel. The gold proofs were sandblasted, except for the 2 years of satin proofs. A sandblasted proof will actually have LESS detail than a satin proof because of the abrasive particles.

[VKurtB]

One partial indicator of a proof Buffalo nickel is the edge of the coin. And the rim. The edge is virtually mirror like and very crisply squared off. The rims tend to be quite high off the fields nearby. And the rim seems to dive deeply into the fields. Imagine yourself a flea standing on the coin’s rim, looking into the “canyon” that is the coin’s design. Then look down at that slope into the coin’s field. On a proof, that slope will be very scary. On a polished circulation coin, you might think, “Meh, I could make that.”

If you want to talk to a nickel specialist about this, I would recommend Angel Dee’s. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by VKurtB