Tantalizing Tidbit 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

Here's an interesting tidbit seemingly hot off the press that raises more questions than it does answers.

"Market Analysis:  $3,600 for counterfeit British halfpenny" by Steve Roach, Coin World, Aug. 17, 2022.

"A newly-discovered example of the extremely rare 1777 circulating counterfeit halfpenny likely produced in America graded Fine Details, Excessive Corrosion by NGC sold for $3,600 on Apr. 4." (Emphasis mine.)

"Listed as Vlack 10-77A using Robert A. Vlack's numbering system.... the variety was not included in Eric P. Newman's terrific collection and is often missing from major cabinets."

[Some of the more persistently vocal anti-counterfeitists on the Forum may want to have a go at this, as I am not going to say another word.]

[Oldhoopster]

It's a contemporary counterfeit.  18th century Counterfeit British coppers and colonial spanish contemporary counterfeits are highly collectable and in no way related to modern Chinese fake junk made to cheat collectors.

The references to Mr Vlack's book and Eric Newman's collection should be an indication that this is an area worthy of numismatic research and collecting.  If I recall correctly, there is another book or website that classifies these CCs by a number of different types and similar info is out there for Spanish colonial CCs. 

Not sure what you mean by "Some of the more persistently vocal anti-counterfeitists on the Forum may want to have a go at this".  CCs are a legitimate area for numismatic study, research, and collecting. 

Now, if you think $3600 is too much for a Geo III CC, that's a completely different question (I have no opinion on that)

[VKurtB]

Contemporary counterfeits are a contentious topic known by all ANA certified exhibit judges.  Let me run by all of you the latest controversy and see what you think. 
1) As a general rule, counterfeits are not permitted in ANA exhibits unless STRICTLY as an educational item. 
2) The 2nd place exhibit in U.S. Coins (Class 1), a treatise on metal changes to U.S. coins during World War 2, contained a whole section on Henning nickels.

Q: Should it have been disqualified?

Note: Dan Carr’s fantasy overdates ARE permitted. The precedent is clear. Liberty Coins were once disqualifying, but no longer are. 

[Oldhoopster]

There is a fuzzy area with contemporary counterfeits where many can have differing opinions.  I consider the following collectable:

They were made to pass a circulating currency, not to fool/cheat collectors

They were made during a similar time period as the date suggests

So Ali Express Chinese = No.  Henning Nickels = Yes. Omega gold counterfeits = No.  18th century British and Spanish CCs = YES. Ancient Roman Limes = Yes.  Carr replicas = Maybe (disclosure, I have no interest in his work). Paper Currency = I'm not opening that can of worms 

Just my opinion and this is a topic that can have many different and passionate opinions.

 

 

[EagleRJO]

[EagleRJO]

I will say this. I have a number of the various coins being discussed that I find interesting and which didn't cost that much, which I keep together and collectively refer to as "Potty Dollars" after one type, which should be a clue as to how I view these coins. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:40 AM, Oldhoopster said:

....The references to Mr Vlack's book and Eric Newman's collection should be an indication that this is an area worthy of numismatic research and collecting....

Actually, truth be told, the cryptic hieroglyphics accompanying the text meant nothing to me.  It was the picture [photo] of the coin residing comfortably within an official encapsulation with an epitaph comprised of a few glowing decriptors that told a thousand words:  when is the last time you picked up such a slab saw the words EXCESSIVE CORROSION and reached for your wallet?  Has any hobo nickel enjoyed a similar return on investment?  This creation has been deemed a resounding success by the numismatic marketplace and the proof is in its apparent demand.

[Oldhoopster]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:44 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Actually, truth be told, the cryptic hieroglyphics accompanying the text meant nothing to me.  It was the picture [photo] of the coin residing comfortably within an official encapsulation with an epitaph comprised of a few glowing decriptors that told a thousand words:  when is the last time you picked up such a slab saw the words EXCESSIVE CORROSION and reached for your wallet?  Has any hobo nickel enjoyed a similar return on investment?  This creation has been deemed a resounding success by the numismatic marketplace and the proof is in its apparent demand.

I understand where you're coming from and am not criticizing your opinion but look at it from my perspective.

Although I would not personally pay big $$ for coins like you mentioned, I absolutely enjoy the history we can learn from them.  How did people conduct commerce 250 years ago? How did they manage when there were significant coin shortages?  How many of the contemporary counterfeits were made out of necessity and how many were from the needed do wells trying to make a profit? What were the relationships between the early government and private mints?  How did people try to get around counterfeiting by making worn pieces like Canadian blacksmith tokens? We can learn a lot through numismatics

This stuff fascinates me and drives my passion to learn more not only about this topic but numerous other areas of numismatics. That's why I place so much value on my library as well as my coins

I also understand that there are many different areas in numismatics for people to pursue their interests.  I've spent my share of time chasing dates and mintmarks and have complete sets of Indians, Buffalos, and Barbers to name a few.  I loved the thrill of the hunt to find that special coin to add to the Album. Even though it's not my thing, I understand your passion to find that high grade French Rooster and that's no less important to you than for me wanting to learn as much history as possible.  We all have our areas of interest that are important to us. Who is to say that some are better than others.

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/4/2022 at 11:11 AM, Oldhoopster said:

.... Who is to say that some are better than others.

There are a few all of whom the Guidelines prohibit me from mentioning by name...

One member roundly denounced my area of interest, early on, as a "niche" corner of the numismatic universe, unworthy of attention.

Another, sniffed my coins were mere bullion and never minted for circulation and [accurately] surmised it would be impossible to compile [a low-ball collection] because little or none exist in those grades. 

The most biting commentary came from a dear friend who should know.  He argued how valuable can  a compilation be if it could be assembled so rapidly with ease in such a short period of time.

The one criticism I have never gotten is the dates reflected on eight [effectively half the series] are factually misleading. They are the so-called "restrikes," which despite being dated 1907 to 1914, were minted in 1921, and the 1950's and 1960's.

[Although I have stated publicly I am no longer in the hunt, I am seriously considering acquiring both the 1910 and 1914 French 20-franc gold roosters in MS-67 grade and divesting myself of those graded MS-66 whose dates have been superseded by finer examples.]

[VKurtB]

On 10/4/2022 at 10:54 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

There are a few all of whom the Guidelines prohibit me from mentioning by name...

One member roundly denounced my area of interest, early on, as a "niche" corner of the numismatic universe, unworthy of attention.

Another, sniffed my coins were mere bullion and never minted for circulation and [accurately] surmised it would be impossible to compile [a low-ball collection] because little or none exist in those grades. 

The most biting commentary came from a dear friend who should know.  He argued how valuable can  a compilation be if it could be assembled so rapidly with ease in such a short period of time.

The one criticism I have never gotten is the dates reflected on eight [effectively half the series] are factually misleading. They are the so-called "restrikes," which despite being dated 1907 to 1914, were minted in 1921, and the 1950's and 1960's.

[Although I have stated publicly I am no longer in the hunt, I am seriously considering acquiring both the 1910 and 1914 French 20-franc gold roosters in MS-67 grade and divesting myself of those graded MS-66 whose dates have been superseded by finer examples.]

Some people need to get over the restriking issue. 1780 Maria Theresa thalers are still being struck. Same with 1915 Franz Josef ducats. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by VKurtB

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/3/2022 at 6:32 PM, VKurtB said:

Contemporary counterfeits are a contentious topic known by all ANA certified exhibit judges.  Let me run by all of you the latest controversy and see what you think. 
1) As a general rule, counterfeits are not permitted in ANA exhibits unless STRICTLY as an educational item. 
2) The 2nd place exhibit in U.S. Coins (Class 1), a treatise on metal changes to U.S. coins during World War 2, contained a whole section on Henning nickels.

Q: Should it have been disqualified?

The only thing that would give me pause is that Henning nickels are illegal to own, I believe this is the case, as the nickel or nickel's of this era are still legal tender, having not been demonetized and still redeemable. From a strictly numismatic point of view I'm a no, to disqualification, all day long on these and any contemporary counterfeit of a similar nature used for exhibiting. I have many contemporary counterfeit [banknotes] in my collection and I consider them legitimate pieces of history and vital to story telling, numismatics and my collection. 

[Henri Charriere]

[Two unrelated tidbits... One, the Royal Mint waited a respectable interval before announcing the effigy of King Charles III would soon be gracing coins and currency in due course, and Two, I believe the Perth Mint has already minted a very limited run of King Tut in gold bullion coins in observance of the 100th century of the discovery of his tomb. (I will observe the occasion by watching Steve Martin's rendition as performed on an old Saturday Night Live clip now on YouTube.)]  

[pigeonman333rd]

I found two flying eagle counterfeits while coin roll hunting in oregon one in a nickel roll one in a penny roll but they are fake. To more for the junk pile.

[Henri Charriere]

Junk pile? No official post-mortem?

Not surprisingly, I have never had the good fortune of coming into possession of a genuine counterfeit, such as a work of Hemming's, a fine work of art if it fooled me what with the discriminating eye I have for detail (and buying sight-unseen). 

I have, however, picked up a ready-made reply to any Treasury agent who were to summon up the audacity to command me to surrender one:  MOLON LABE!

To quote the old-school rapper, Kool Moe Dee: "How ya like me now?"

A member on this Forum explicitly expressed his desire to own one.  Don't worry, Hog!  I got your back. Now let's total up the damage: possession of a counterfeit article exacerbated by sending it thru the mails.  In the interests of promoting Numismatics, and having survived the punishments meted out to me by moderators, I believe I have the mettle to withstand meddling by those intent on interfering with my right to life, liberty and the enjoyment of artistically-rendered alloys.         

[LINCOLNMAN]

I find it rather silly that a distinction is made between counterfeits made in Colonial times in the US and those made in England. I have a nice British GIII halfpenny in my collection that was produced in England at the same time Machin's Mills and other US counterfeiters were operating. I collected it as part of my Colonials. I couldn't find anyone except SEGS to slab it and they put all sorts of warnings on the slab  Absurd. . 

[Henri Charriere]

@LINCOLNMAN:

You'll kindly excuse my tittering over your tantalizing tidbit.  Encapsulation logically follows authentication and certification.  Here, you have turned the natural progression of things on its head.  One can only assume your halfpenny's inauthenticity was verified and thereby, in a fanciful way only an outlier of the hobby can appreciate the humor of, AUTHENTICATED and CERTIFIED!  Nice catch!  That's one example of "questionable" provenance even a hard-boiled anti-counterfeitist on this Forum will lose no sleep over.  Should the irresistible urge to post a pic of the coin seize you, by all means do so.  

[Moxie15]

I do not see where some people are coming ftom....If someone wishes to collect contemporary counterfeits then what is to stop them from paying what they wish?

No one here has anything to say about what is worthy of collecting. Some of us collect gold roosters, some gold angels (that are realy genuises, not angels), some collect liards, while others collect 18th century fakes, it is all about what pleases the collector, nothing else

[zadok]

On 10/24/2022 at 7:24 PM, Moxie15 said:

I do not see where some people are coming ftom....If someone wishes to collect contemporary counterfeits then what is to stop them from paying what they wish?

No one here has anything to say about what is worthy of collecting. Some of us collect gold roosters, some gold angels (that are realy genuises, not angels), some collect liards, while others collect 18th century fakes, it is all about what pleases the collector, nothing else

...agree with u whole hardily...u have to realize that the collecting of contemporary counterfeits here as a viable annex to an otherwise standard style collection is beyond the intellect of some of our members, they fail to understand the logical extension, but many r not true coin collectors in the truest sense but rather accumulators of things of which some happen to be coins...many only collect items that r reflected in a single registry set, numismatically related but not numismatically based...but to each his own its a free world at least for the time being....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/24/2022 at 8:57 PM, zadok said:

....many only collect items that r reflected in a single registry set, numismatically related but not numismatically based....

🐓:  Wait, what?

Q.A.:  Classic z-speak.  Surely, he must know I maintain my rankings, unchanged, in two sets... One here, #7 "Herostratus Hoard," (a name he not only Googled, but shared the results of with other members) and the other, over "there," #1 "Rooster Roster" a member here, unprompted, helpfully provided a direct link to... Man, I love this place!  

[LINCOLNMAN]

QA here is the counterfeit in question. Faulty memory, it was ICG who kindly slabbed it. White label is mine. Note the warnings, looks like a crime scene. 

[pigeonman333rd]

Here is a pic of the two counterfeits found in change. These were found in oregon where they make coins. I say that because they have a place in town called the little mint which I assume that means they make coins but I don't really know I've never been their. I take all possible counterfeits out of change because it helps the nation keep it real and at only a few cents to me. I plan to get these to a bigger counterfeit collection in Vermont some day to get them out of my real collection and into a hoard where they belong stashed away for a later generation to explore and hopefully help not get ripped off because they know what a counterfeit looks like.

[Henri Charriere]

Exceptional pieces!  There is not a collector on this Forum or elsewhere who would object to their existence, collection and encapsulation.  They're different: I like them very much.  No attempt to deceive.  100% transparency.  Great stuff!