Trade Dollar Grade? 1 1

[EagleRJO]

I find some trade dollars interesting, particularly ones with chop marks which are not overdone or bend the coins, so I have been trying to grade/value some I see and watch what they go for or possibly make an offer on one if it looks pretty good.

The attached doesn't have much wear (I know it's not the best pics), so I was thinking it would be an XF+ or AU, and more likely an AU with possibly a light cleaning in the past as many of these older coins have had.  What do you guys think?

Edited August 25, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:39 PM, EagleRJO said:

I find some trade dollars interesting, particularly ones with chop marks which are not overdone or bend the coins, so I have been trying to grade/value some I see and watch what they go for or possibly make an offer on one if it looks pretty good.

The attached doesn't have much wear (I know it's not the best pics), so I was thinking it would be an XF+ or AU, and more likely an AU with possibly a light cleaning in the past as many of these older coins have had.  What do you guys think?

Well I don't like the chops but It looks like it has been around a bit.

[EagleRJO]

For me chop marks gives the coins a little history or backstory, since the circulated ones were commonly used in Asia to buy things for trade, as long as the chops are not overdone.  I have seen some that bend the coins, cause raised surfaces on the opposite side, and sometimes completely obliterates the devices which I don't like.  To me those really are damaged or impaired.

[Fenntucky Mike]

I think you're in the ballpark with your assessment, I was thinking AU cleaned myself. I thought there was a reference or website that went into detail about chop marks on trade dollars, even identifying individual chop marks, maybe someone will chime in on that.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:53 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I thought there was a reference or website that went into detail about chop marks on trade dollars, even identifying individual chop marks, maybe someone will chime in on that.

That would be very interesting to check out.  Maybe some others who are into Trade Dollars might chime in.

[Sandon]

   No, the photos are far from the best, but it appears to me that the coin has been polished, which is considered a substantial impairment, in addition to the chop marks and other damage, such as on Liberty's left leg. The coin also has more wear than you think.  What's left of the details would be barely XF.  Compare the detail on this coin with an uncirculated one.  It's probably genuine, but there are so many fake trade dollars, even with chop marks, that you can't be sure, especially from a photo.

[EagleRJO]

Looking at the ANA standard as a conservative reference, and comparing to some CoinFacts examples, the focus is at the high points which are: the head/hair, shoulder, left breast, kneecap, and wheat behind the seat on the obverse; and then the eagles' head and upper part of the wings on the reverse.

It's not the best photo but making various changes with imaging software brings various areas more into focus, at the loss of some other elements, which is hard to show.  So, it may just be somewhat blurry/poor pictures not revealing that much detail, and why I was thinking XF+ to AU.  But without better pics or having it in hand to look at closely and take additional pics to post its hard to convey what I am seeing with the software.

Also, are you aware of any online references that discuss the chop marks for these Trade Dollars in more detail? 

Edited August 26, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Just Bob]

Am I seeing this wrong, or is that not a type one obverse?

The end of the LIBERTY ribbon appears to be pointing to the left, but it may just be the way the picture looks.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Just Bob

[Sandon]

   The photos are poor, but on magnification--click the photo--the ribbon does point down as it would have to on a genuine 1877-S trade dollar, or any trade dollar dated 1877 or thereafter, all of which were struck with the "Type 2" obverse and reverse.  (See the Redbook.)

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:07 AM, Just Bob said:

Am I seeing this wrong, or is that not a type one obverse?

The end of the LIBERTY ribbon appears to be pointing to the left, but it may just be the way the picture looks.

On 8/26/2022 at 11:00 AM, Sandon said:

 The photos are poor, but on magnification--click the photo--the ribbon does point down

If you look closely the ribbon also continues down slightly past the first joint on Libertys' pedestal consistent with a type-2 obverse, instead stopping at that joint as with an earlier type-1 obverse.  But I don't think the ribbon position actually changed from earlier to later date Trade Dollars, it looks like just the joints on the pedestal were changed leading to the different position of the ribbon end.

I think a more telling difference between the earlier and later date Trade Dollars is the reverse, with the latter ones like that being discussed having a clutched arrow tip over the "2" (instead of over the "0") in 420 as well as no berry branch under the eagles' claw on the right side.

 

[Just Bob]

On 8/26/2022 at 3:52 PM, EagleRJO said:

If you look closely the ribbon also continues down slightly past the first joint on Libertys' pedestal consistent with a type-2 obverse, instead stopping at that joint as with an earlier type-1 obverse.  But I don't think the ribbon position actually changed from earlier to later date Trade Dollars, it looks like just the joints on the pedestal were changed leading to the different position of the ribbon end.

I think a more telling difference between the earlier and later date Trade Dollars is the reverse, with the latter ones like that being discussed having a clutched arrow tip over the "2" (instead of over the "0") in 420 as well as no berry branch under the eagles' claw on the right side.

 

For the benefit of future readers of this thread: There are actually two recognized  obverse types, and two reverse types. The type one and two obverses can be distinguished by the fingers of the extended hand, and the end of the ribbon. The reverse types are distinguished  by the arrow end and berry, as is stated above. The two obverses were used with both reverses during different years, until 1877, as Sandon stated in his above post.

The different styles and years they were used can be seen on This page

[EagleRJO]

And the Red Book has a listing of the various combinations of obverses and reverses, which can vary by year/mint. for the periods Trade Dollars were struck. 😉