Another Fake? 1903-O & 1902-S Morgans
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79 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)
On 8/18/2022 at 11:32 AM, DWLange said:

There's no evidence that any 1964-dated Morgans were coined ...

Bingo, you win the kewpie doll. (thumbsu

On 8/18/2022 at 11:26 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is that true ?  I thought I read that a few "samples" were made and ordered to be destroyed.  Isn't there one in the LBJ Library or something ?

There are no known "samples", whatever you mean by that, not in a library or anywhere else, and if destroyed it doesn't really matter, it doesn't exist just like the 1965 Peace Dollar which doesn't exist, for which I also have a Dan Carr fantasy coin due to the intrigue.

There are rumors of "trial strikes" for the 1964-D Morgan by the US Mint according to Bowers, but sadly there is no proof any were struck or exist, and Bowers did not find any working dies when he was in the storage vault or anywhere else at the mint.  He did ask about them and look because that would have been quite a find, but sadly no.  If you don't know what a "trial strike" is that Bowers is talking about, and that I mentioned above, see the attached from the US Mint for "Trial Strikes for the Eisenhower Dollar" which apparently was the first time that was open to the public:

Trial Strikes of Eisenhower Dollar (www.usmint.gov/learn/history/historical-documents/trial-strikes-eisenhower-dollar)

If you still really think Dan Carr is "counterfeiting" these coins ponder this.  A guy who runs a private mint is producing counterfeits of US coins, so the US Mint or Treasury Dept doesnt go after him, but instead asks that guy/mint to submit a design for one coin and then asks him to actually design two other coins (2001 N.Y. & R.I. State Quarters) for the US Mint, and ANACS will authenticate and slab these?  Yea right, and I have a bridge to sell you.

Edited by EagleRJO
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Posted (edited)
On 8/18/2022 at 3:27 PM, RWB said:

The Bowers info is very old and based on no facts.

@RWB According to Bowers' "Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars" (updated/expanded 2021) he was physically at the US Mint in 2015 with some others to do research on Morgans when they discovered the obverse/reverse models, working hubs, and master dies for the mythical 1964 Morgan, and he includes pictures of these finds in his book.  He also documents their subsequent inquires and research into the possible existence of working dies and trial strikes for a 1964-D Morgan, which they were unable to discover or find any evidence of.  This was confirmed by Whitman publisher Dennis Tucker and Littleton Coin president David Sundman in articles they wrote, including pictures of the search and what they found.  I would say those are some pretty good, confirmed facts, and I am not aware of any more recent facts which may contradict or supplement that information.

Are you aware of any facts which may contradict or supplement that information as to the possible existence of working dies or trial strikes for a 1964 Morgan?  I would be very interested in any additional info you have as this is a very intriguing subject for me.

Edited by EagleRJO
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Read the Peace dollar book chapter. 1964 Peace dollar info is the best available.

Thought you were referring to the SD&TD Encyc he wrote. The Morgan design copies were known years before Bowers visited in 2015, but photos were not available. Bill Fivaz reported them long ago but had only photos of the Peace dollar casts. I proofed the Morgan Dollar material for Whitman and made corrections. The information was generally correct on those models. There are many more things that the Mint folks have not permitted access to. They will eventually reach the public.

Now, kindly go back to your counterfeits. I do not care to assist anyone who supports counterfeit coins or counterfeiters in ANY way!

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Posted (edited)
On 8/18/2022 at 5:01 PM, RWB said:

There are many more things that the Mint folks have not permitted access to. They will eventually reach the public.

Strange, you have to wonder why they would have restricted areas/things, and when in the future they would permit access to certain areas/things.  Maybe alternate storage for Area 51 that they need to "clean up"? :whistle:

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Posted (edited)

Okay, now to get back to the whole point of this thread which was grading/authentication of late date raw Morgans. Here are 2 more raw Morgans I recently saw just to kick around which are both 1902-S coins.

(1) The first one appears to be XF (cotton leaves, hair, ear, feathers defined with slight wear esp. high points), maybe even AU (maybe not for ANA grading), but with a much darker appearance.  Tarnish?  I know these aren't the best pics, but I didn't want to waste everyone's time asking for better ones because I really don't like the way it looks anyway.

(2) The second one looks like XF, but it may have been cleaned (darker areas around/within the letters and devices).  But I'm not sure because it could just be some tarnish buildup and a lot of contact marks for a circulated XF coin as opposed to scratches/marks from cleaning.

Thoughts?

1902-S Morgan no.36.jpg

1902-S Morgan currencyshoppe.jpg

Edited by EagleRJO
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The dark one looks to be in the best shape may have been cleaned in the last 100 years to hard to tell. The other is Not XF. IMO VF 30 maybe . Damaged date, cleaned and worn. $75 or BO.

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On 8/18/2022 at 7:13 PM, J P Mashoke said:

The dark one looks to be in the best shape may have been cleaned in the last 100 years to hard to tell. The other is Not XF. IMO VF 30 maybe . Damaged date, cleaned and worn. $75 or BO.

Yea, I just saw the damaged date and looking a little closer the wear on the eagles left wing and other areas.  VF agreed, and Details as suspected.

Maybe the first one just needs a little "dip in the pool". :insane:

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Here is another one that looks like an AU - Details or maybe XF+

And why would somebody essentially destroy a nice coin like that with such a harsh cleaning?

1902-S Morgan Dollar AU Details - Bid <a href='https://www.ebay.com/' class='notreplace' title='' target='_blank'  style=eBay scmc_8523.jpg">

1902-S Morgan Dollar AU Details - Bid <a href='https://www.ebay.com/' class='notreplace' title='' target='_blank'  style=eBay scmc_8523 Obv.jpg">

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

It is quite harshly cleaned---to the point that it would most likely be labeled as Polished by NGC. My guess is that someone mounted it in a belt buckle or some jewelry where it tarnished and was repeatedly cleaned.

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On 8/20/2022 at 5:56 AM, EagleRJO said:

Here is another one that looks like an AU - Details or maybe XF+

And why would somebody essentially destroy a nice coin like that with such a harsh cleaning?

 

I would never even attempt to assign a grade, details or otherwise, to a polished coin, this is what I call ungradable.    As to your question why, perhaps as already said it may have been a clothing or jewelry item, also quite possible it was polished to remove a very deep/heavy gash or mark and marketed to the unknowledgeable.   Like it or not shinny sells to non collectors, look at how many people show up here every week with "shinny" (or gunky coins that they want to know how to make shinny) coins and what to know how much their treasure is worth.

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Posted (edited)

Yup, shiny does sell and why many of the older raw coins have had a light "dip in the pool" to get rid of that "ugly tarnish" ("toning"), which the TPGs have accepted. Interesting how collectors' tastes change over time.

It's just such a shame that someone may have actually thought they were "improving" that coin with what they did. I was surprised @DWLangechimed in because as a coin whisperer that coin must have been screaming in agony with what was done ... lol

And about grade, no matter what the condition of a coin, or whether I am even considering buying it or not (not in this case, although I do consider lightly cleaned coins), I have been trying to think of what it would grade and if it might be a fake, so hopefully over time it just becomes second nature. So, any feedback on grade is appreciated, even if the coin may just be returned ungraded/unslabbed if it was actually submitted.

Edited by EagleRJO
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On 8/20/2022 at 8:56 AM, EagleRJO said:

Here is another one that looks like an AU - Details or maybe XF+

And why would somebody essentially destroy a nice coin like that with such a harsh cleaning?

1902-S Morgan Dollar AU Details - Bid <a href='https://www.ebay.com/' class='notreplace' title='' target='_blank'  style=eBay scmc_8523.jpg">

1902-S Morgan Dollar AU Details - Bid <a href='https://www.ebay.com/' class='notreplace' title='' target='_blank'  style=eBay scmc_8523 Obv.jpg">

LoL  I have one that is shinny, not blinding like this one. I got it out of the cull jar for melt price at a dealer. I leave it on my desk for the grandchildren to handle and admire. If they drop it or get fingerprints on it it don't matter. It was worth melt when I got it and it will always be worth melt. I think the white gloves make it a even funnier picture for those of us that know what a shinny coin is.  

1921 D.jpg

1921 D reverse.jpg

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Posted (edited)
On 8/20/2022 at 7:48 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I have one that is shinny, not blinding like this one. I got it out of the cull jar for melt price at a dealer

Pretty nice for a coin out of the cull jar ... hmmm. I would grade it an AU - Details Cleaned/Damaged ... :whistle:

The while cotton glove is a nice touch. You could sell it with that pic on eBay for hundreds. 😉

Edited by EagleRJO
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On 8/20/2022 at 8:47 PM, EagleRJO said:

Pretty nice for a coin out of the cull jar ... hmmm. I would grade it an AU - Details Cleaned/Damaged ... :whistle:

The while cotton glove is a nice touch. You could sell it with that pic on eBay for hundreds. 😉

It is a very nice coin. I think it was a grandma coin she polished up nice and clean for Sonny Boy :facepalm: . A strong strike breast feathers and hair are strong even the edge of the rim is almost sharp. LoL I am sure I could sell it on line but then I would be a cheat like so many others out there. I think we have enough bad numismatic representation on the internet.

Edited by J P Mashoke
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On 8/21/2022 at 6:50 AM, J P Mashoke said:

... I could sell it on line but then I would be a cheat like so many others out there. I think we have enough bad numismatic representation on the internet.

Was totally kidding, but that is a very sad truth. I see so many raw coins on eBay that are overpriced garbage or fakes it would make your head spin. Caveat Emptor!

If you looked closely I bet the number of fakes is staggering. But at least with the counterfeits eBay does seem to take them down if it's pretty obvious and I say something.

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On 8/21/2022 at 11:38 AM, EagleRJO said:

Was totally kidding, but that is a very sad truth. I see so many raw coins on eBay that are overpriced garbage or fakes it would make your head spin. Caveat Emptor!I

They prey on the lack of a formal TPG grade and the lack of knowledge by the buyers.  A real collector will see they are overpriced and often by 3 grades or more even in the right grouping (MS, Circulated, XF, etc.).

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Posted (edited)
On 8/16/2022 at 11:05 PM, EagleRJO said:

The 1903-O is likely going to end up being one of my favorite Morgans in the collection (unless I can actually afford a decent VF or XF 1893-S one day), and why I am spending a good amount of time and effort looking for a really nice one for the circulation set.  I am actually seriously considering spending more than my budget for a nice BU grade 1903-O because of that.

I was orig looking at an XF or AU for the 1903-O in my collection, but I think the attached BU/MS is going to be my Huckelberry for that coin given the significance,

It's also interesting that I noticed a 1903-O graded G-4 is being seriously bid up over at GC.  I do occasionally see the worst grades available going for more than higher grades.  Must be a few ppl going after it for their "Low Ball" sets. :grin: 

1903-O Morgan Dollar BU.jpg

1903-O Morgan G-06 GC Bids1.jpg

Edited by EagleRJO
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