1964 JFK Half Dollar - possibly SMS Coin?
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32 posts in this topic

On 8/12/2022 at 11:06 PM, Kevine84 said:

This is from the same set I posted a nickel question on recent ly

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I hit submit before I asked for help with better knowledge to tell if they agreed. The strike, finish and very sharp edges lead me to believe it is SMS. Any feedback appreciated 

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It looks like a proof to me. Are you sure you're not pulling these from a Philadelphia Proof Set?

Edited by bsshog40
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There was no coins sent out SMS in 1964 only the last of the silver proof sets. The only SMS sets I know of are 65,66 and 67 like these.

SMS.jpg

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  Per PCGS Coinfacts at https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-50c-sms/6844 a dozen or so pieces have turned up that are believed to be experimental strikes for SMS coins, but they were all obtained through a coin dealer who is thought to have obtained them from a mint employee.  They aren't known to have been issued in 1964 proof sets like yours.  I've seen proof 1964 Kennedy half dollars that aren't completely mirrored and have a little "cartwheel".  This is probably due to high production. The plastic also makes them look a little dull.  

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On 8/13/2022 at 12:40 PM, RWB said:

No such thing. Any claims otherwise have NEVER been substantiated.

Well chosen words here. “Never been substantiated”. Yet some very serious not insignificant people claim they exist. It’s a VERRRRRY controversial subject. All I can tell you is my educated opinion on this one - which is that @RWB is correct. They appear to be initial strikes made from new dies, and individually fed so that they didn’t suffer normal bin and machine contact marks.

If I EVER get the chance to examine one in my hand or even under glass, I reserve the right to change my mind. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/13/2022 at 3:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Well chosen words here. “Never been substantiated”. Yet some very serious not insignificant people claim they exist. It’s a VERRRRRY controversial subject. All I can tell you is my educated opinion on this one - which is that @RWB is correct. They appear to be initial strikes made from new dies, and individually fed so that they didn’t suffer normal bin and machine contact marks.

If I EVER get the chance to examine one in my hand or even under glass, I reserve the right to change my mind. 

OK

I know that I am chronically wrong. But I have a 1964 Mint set 

I have matched die marks on every coin in the set to PCGS Photos for SMS coins including the 1968 half dollar specimen 

This does not make sense 

I have read the history but I am looking at it 

I am trying to find a good way to compare this to show what I am looking at. 

Any suggestions to help me create side by side pix easy?

 

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On 8/13/2022 at 6:41 PM, Kevine84 said:

OK

I know that I am chronically wrong. But I have a 1964 Mint set 

I have matched die marks on every coin in the set to PCGS Photos for SMS coins including the 1968 half dollar specimen 

This does not make sense 

I have read the history but I am looking at it 

I am trying to find a good way to compare this to show what I am looking at. 

Any suggestions to help me create side by side pix easy?

 

YOU. HAVE. A. 1964. PROOF. SET.

NOTHING. ELSE.

End of story. Not challengeable. Not debatable. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/13/2022 at 12:26 AM, Kevine84 said:

It may be. I am not sure what tells me. I assumed that the proof was more mirror like 

The matte pliofilm prevents seeing the mirrored finish. Please stop embarrassing yourself. 

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On 8/13/2022 at 6:01 PM, VKurtB said:

The matte pliofilm prevents seeing the mirrored finish. Please stop embarrassing yourself. 

I am not embarrassed. I simply want to post this and get a very specific answer to my example. I am trying to learn and I just have a few questions. 

In the attached I see a lot of what I think are results of the minting process.  

It is my understanding that the die would be the same if all the marks are made the same.

Are these things coincidence or what am I missing?

 

 

 

Screenshot_20220812-222108_Chrome_resized (1).jpg

Screenshot_20220812-222108_Chrome.jpg

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On 8/13/2022 at 7:41 PM, Kevine84 said:

I am not embarrassed. I simply want to post this and get a very specific answer to my example. I am trying to learn and I just have a few questions. 

In the attached I see a lot of what I think are results of the minting process.  

It is my understanding that the die would be the same if all the marks are made the same.

Are these things coincidence or what am I missing?

 

 

 

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Your analysis is backward. EVERY feature can be from one or more sources. Any feature can be from the master hub, in which case all coins should have it, but may be missing in late die state strikes. A feature may be in a master die, or a working hub, or a working die (Doubled dies happen at this last one.) Just because a variety coin has markers a,b,c,d, and e, and a different coin ALSO has markers a,b,c,d, and e, that DOES NOT MEAN THE SUBJECT COIN IS ALSO THAT VARIETY. 
 

There have to be EXCLUSIVE markers - things that the coin in question have that no others do. None of the markers you illustrate are diagnostic markers. In the case of the ALLEGED SMS coins, not even HAVING THE CORRECT DIE MATTERS. It has already been proven that there are later strikes from the same dies that are not considered SMS. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/13/2022 at 6:50 PM, VKurtB said:

Your analysis is backward. EVERY feature can be from one or more sources. Any feature can be from the master hub, in which case all coins should have it, but may be missing in late die state strikes. A feature may be in a master die, or a working hub, or a working die (Doubled dies happen at this last one.) Just because a variety coin has markers a,b,c,d, and e, and a different coin ALSO has markers a,b,c,d, and e, that DOES NOT MEAN THE SUBJECT COIN IS ALSO THAT VARIETY. 
 

There have to be EXCLUSIVE markers - things that the coin in question have that no others do. None of the markers you illustrate are diagnostic markers. In the case of the ALLEGED SMS coins, not even HAVING THE CORRECT DIE MATTERS. It has already been proven that there are later strikes from the same dies that are not considered SMS. 

OK I am hearing you. Where can I find the definitive exclusive markers for this coin?

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And you are absolutely correct that this is a proof.  

I told everyone that the SMS didn't make sense. I didn't understand the part I had backwards. I think I have a much better understanding. 

I am sorry to drag it out another 2 questions but I appreciate the time you spent on it. 

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Sorry Kevine, The whole SMS thing can be confusing and the internet does not help. SMS coins were only made because collectors had there proofs taken away IMO. The first SMS sets were not even made until 1966. Yes they made 1965 coins in 1966 until August also they were clad. I don't think they were making silver 1964 SMS coins in 1966 at San Francisco. On a different note. I know there were some (special pieces) from 1964 that were made and found but they were only a small amount per say.

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On 8/13/2022 at 9:07 PM, Kevine84 said:

OK I am hearing you. Where can I find the definitive exclusive markers for this coin?

You're going to have to do some research.  For stuff like this, there are no simple lists to look up. Hopefully, you're doing this as a learning exercise and not trying to prove your proof is an SMS

I would start with looking at the archived auction listings from HA, Stacks-Bowers, and other big players.  They may offer some marker info, such as the teardrop on the 4 (also found on business strikes) or others.  Also check PCGS (coinfacts) and NGC for any write ups.  You should also check the Newman Numismatic Portal as well.  Hopefully, that will get you started, but there are likely other sources to be found.

Let us know what you find

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

The coin is that first photo is a proof, one of four million coined....period.

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If you ask about a Nickel that you think is SMS, and it is not.  You should not assume that the Half Dollar from the set is.

Understand that every coin you post, you are asking if what you have is the rarest of the rare - finding one would be winning the lottery.  You have posted several "potential finds" like this within the last two weeks.  

Personally, I think it's time to slow down and study.  I understand you want to make a BIG find, but your best investment is in knowledge.  Continuously posting these coins does nothing but burn your credibility and wears everyone out. 

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On 8/14/2022 at 2:08 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

 Continuously posting these coins does nothing but burn your credibility and wears everyone out.

Yes. This. My GAWD yes this. 

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On 8/13/2022 at 1:36 PM, Sandon said:

... a dozen or so pieces have turned up that are believed to be experimental strikes for SMS coins, but they were all obtained through a coin dealer who is thought to have obtained them from a mint employee.

I think the only known ones are from a collector who was friends with the mint director back then if I am remembering correctly. But who knows, maybe that mint director had other friends they shared some of those coins with, and I wonder if a director is permitted to keep any coins for themselves.

Edited by EagleRJO
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On 8/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, EagleRJO said:

I think the only known ones are from a collector who was friends with the mint director back then if I am remembering correctly. But who knows, maybe that mint director had other friends they shared some of those coins with, and I wonder if a director is permitted to keep any coins for themselves.

Permitted is one matter. Did is quite another. It seems that asking for forgiveness instead of permission has been the “go to” method. Or maybe it’s just that with past Mint officials it was more like, “BLEEP you!”

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On 8/13/2022 at 5:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Well chosen words here. “Never been substantiated”. Yet some very serious not insignificant people claim they exist. It’s a VERRRRRY controversial subject

GEESH  havnt you seen YOUTUBE???   hundreds of them!!!!  hahahahahaahh

 

On 8/13/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

No such thing. Any claims otherwise have NEVER been substantiated.

 

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On 8/15/2022 at 3:24 PM, JT2 said:

havnt you seen YOUTUBE

For anything related to coins? No. The last YouRube video I used was to learn how to change the in-tank fuel pump on a Subaru wagon. 

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On 8/15/2022 at 4:28 PM, VKurtB said:

The last YouRube video I used was to learn how to change the in-tank fuel pump on a Subaru wagon. 

that is exactly how i figured out how to change the headlamp on a 2008 Nissan altima.....hahahahahah

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On 8/16/2022 at 5:48 AM, JT2 said:

that is exactly how i figured out how to change the headlamp on a 2008 Nissan altima.....hahahahahah

The ‘ru died of a broken timing belt at 327,000 miles. 

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On 8/15/2022 at 4:17 PM, VKurtB said:

Permitted is one matter. Did is quite another.

Very true. I was just curious if there may be any truth to a "rumor" I heard that certain govt officials can legit give away special coins from the mint as gifts.

(And then maybe grab a few to toss in a safe deposit for themselves, which we all know would never happen  ... 😆)

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On 8/16/2022 at 3:51 PM, VKurtB said:

The ‘ru died of a broken timing belt at 327,000 miles. 

Yup. Bent valve stems, the whole schmeer. At some point, ya just play “Taps” and drop her off at the local independent Subaru shop to use for parts. 

Edited by VKurtB
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