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Whizzed 1893-S Morgan Coin?
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43 posts in this topic

Thank you Sandon! The seller guarantees it is a real coin however, all of the things you mentioned are very likely.

On 8/7/2022 at 11:26 PM, Sandon said:

   The 1854-O half dollar in Mr. Bill's photo could be a counterfeit, but it's most likely a harshly cleaned and otherwise abused genuine coin.  (It also appears to have been holed and plugged at around 1:00 relative to the obverse!)  The most suspicious aspect is the extra metal around the reverse devices and lettering, but this could be the result of etching by too long an immersion in an acidic dip.  While mint mark positions are important for authenticating lower mintage mint marked coins that were struck from a limited number of dies whose diagnostics are well known, they are less useful for more common issues struck from a large number of die pairs, as mint marks were hand punched into the dies until the early 1990s, and the locations vary from die to die.  (Someone reading this who has the Wiley-Bugert book on Seated half dollar die varieties might be able to identify this one, but if it matches it could still be a counterfeit modeled from a genuine coin. and if it doesn't it could be an unlisted die variety.) In any event, it isn't a coin I'd buy either.  (For $10 or so it might make a nice gift for a young collector.)

 

thank you!

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I was looking into adding a few older mid to late 1800's half dollars to my collection because I like the way they look, and funny enough the 1854-O Arrow Seated Liberty Half Dollar was one in particular since it's a high-mintage low-cost option in circulated grades to start with for that era (or maybe a high-mintage low-cost 1858-O).  But apparently those half dollars are faked, including the 1854-O even though it's not worth that much, and some are unbelievably good.  So, even though I prefer raw coins I might get a few slabbed, which shouldn't be that much more for a few coins.  Also, see the linked Coin Week article below about that and the attached fake referenced in the article.

Article: Counterfeit Coin Detection - 1854-O Arrows Seated Liberty Half Dollar (www.coinweek.com/us-coins/counterfeit-coin-detection-1854-o-arrows-seated-liberty-half-dollar/)

The coin that @Mr.Bill347 posted has a date mark that is kind of close, but still looks off, to only one of multiple dozens of PCGS CoinFacts and PhotoGrade examples specifically for an 1854-O Arrow Seated Liberty Half Dollar, and for that one which had a somewhat similar date it has a completely different mint mark position, and the mint mark doesn't even match any of the examples.  Is the coin a fake?  Idk, that would have to be determined by an expert, but there are enough red flags for me to walk away.

On 8/8/2022 at 9:01 AM, Mr.Bill347 said:

The seller guarantees it is a real coin ...

He may very well be a straight up dealer who truly believes it's not a fake, but how was that established since it's raw and some of the fakes are very good.  I guess if you really want the coin, you could work out some kind of deal where he sends it in for TPG verification, which shouldn't be that much more as a dealer if he regularly submits coins, and if it comes back real add it to the cost or something like that.  Or maybe just go with a different slabbed one he has.  Just my 2 (Indian Head) nickels. ;)

 

1854-O Arrows Seated Liberty Half Dollar FAKE.jpg

Edited by EagleRJO
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Here is the raw 1854-O Arrow Liberty Seated Half Dollar I was initially looking into buying in XF grade, and then the slabbed 1858-O Arrow Liberty Seated Half Dollar I probably will get at just about the same cost to add to my collection considering the article I read about the fakes.

1854-O Liberty Seated Half Dollar XF - $250 Apmex.jpg

1858-O Liberty Seated Half Dollar XF-45 NGC - $250 Apmex Slab.JPG

Edited by EagleRJO
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On 8/8/2022 at 1:21 PM, EagleRJO said:

Here is the raw 1854-O Arrow Seated Liberty Half Dollar I was initially looking into buying in XF grade, and then the slabbed 1858-O Arrow Seated Liberty Half Dollar I probably will get at just about the same cost to add to my collection considering the article I read about the fakes.

1854-O Liberty Seated Half Dollar XF - $250 Apmex.jpg

1858-O Liberty Seated Half Dollar XF-45 NGC - $250 Apmex Slab.JPG

Here is another one that has a funny mint mark position and appears to have been cleaned . I see many of these coins selling as “shipwreck effect “ SS Republic. Who knows the original coin, as the seller agrees is 100% real guaranteed. Selling around $45. I want one of these, I don’t care if it is shipwreck or not. So I am still considering it.

77A6157A-FC35-4F36-8865-62421337CAB3.jpeg

119836AD-0C9C-4ACB-A293-958878A1B4FA.jpeg

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Yea, that is an interesting story about 1865 sinking of the SS Republic with over 50k gold and silver coins which were more recently recovered and often sold as "SS Republic Shipwrecked Effect" coins like the attached.  Idk how the TPGs verify it's from the SS Republic with just paperwork of the coins confirmed and documented origins (required for that label), or for that matter sellers who claim raw coins are "Shipwrecked" to cash in on the premium with these coins, but still interesting.

Republic History | Shipwreck.net

1850-O Seated Liberty Half Dollar 50c Shipwreck S.S. Republic NGC Certified Coin.jpg

Edited by EagleRJO
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      I'll reiterate that mint mark positions, especially on nineteenth century coins, vary widely.  So do their sizes and shapes, as different punches were used, sometimes during the same year.  These variations help identify die varieties for specialists, which are referenced in books and websites on the specific series. Don't confuse diagnostics used to identify added mint marks on key date coins like 1909-S Indian cents struck from a single reverse die or 1916-D dimes with four known reverses with these variations on coins where such alterations aren't an issue!  Both the uncertified 1854-O in Eagle RJO's photos and the 1858-O in Mr. Bill's are likely genuine coins, although the 1858-O is obviously "cleaned".  Below are photos of three PCGS certified Seated half dollars in my registry set, an 1840-O small O--a larger punch was also used that year--an 1843-O with the mint mark centered and an 1845-O with the mint mark much closer to the "crotch" where the olive branch and arrow feathers cross.  

   The "Shipwreck Effect" coins from the SS Republic and other shipwrecks are severely impaired coins notwithstanding their interesting provenance.  I wouldn't want one, certainly not at the high prices they command.

1840-O Seated Half rev.jpg

1843-O Half Dollar rev..jpg

1845-O half dollar rev..jpg

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   I just noted that NGC identified the 1854-O as a counterfeit based upon depressions and marks appearing under magnification, notwithstanding being of the correct weight and composition!  The only way to tell for sure would be if other pieces appeared with the identical marks and depressions from the host coin used to make the copy dies or mold.  

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On 8/8/2022 at 5:50 PM, Sandon said:

 I'll reiterate that mint mark positions, especially on nineteenth century coins, vary widely.

@SandonCompletely understood, and your input as a much more experienced collector is much appreciated and valued.  I just would have expected to see at least one of the multiple dozens of examples that had the mintmark positioned at least similarly as on the coin @Mr.Bill347 originally posted with the "O" centered on the vertical line of the "F" below that.  Maybe more like the examples you posted, which I do recognize as similar to examples.  Again, doesn't mean it's a fake and I'm not an expert, but I just wouldn't buy a coin that got my senses tingling like that coin did.

Now to figure out if I really want to take a shot at that raw 1854-O Arrow Seated Liberty Half Dollar that I really like the appearance of as a circulated coin from one of the larger dealers, or go the safer route with the darker 1858-O coin in a slab coffin never to actually end up in my hand unless I crack it out. :insane:

Edited by EagleRJO
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   If you're really concerned about counterfeit, altered, or impaired coins and aren't sure you can spot them yourself, you should only purchase certified coins and keep them in the certified holders, which do afford a guarantee of authenticity as well as some physical protection for the coins. I've always been ambivalent about third party grading, but so many coins have been "slabbed" it's getting hard to find decent older coins that aren't. The 1858-O NGC graded XF 45 appears to be original and accurately graded.  The photos on NGC certificate verification are a little clearer, especially when magnified.  

   You might want to end this thread, which has strayed significantly from its original topic about an 1893-S Morgan dollar.

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:53 AM, DWLange said:

The old saying is "There's no Santa Claus in numismatics."

Darn, there goes the club’s Christmas party. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:56 PM, Sandon said:

   If you're really concerned about counterfeit, altered, or impaired coins and aren't sure you can spot them yourself, you should only purchase certified coins and keep them in the certified holders, which do afford a guarantee of authenticity as well as some physical protection for the coins. I've always been ambivalent about third party grading, but so many coins have been "slabbed" it's getting hard to find decent older coins that aren't. The 1858-O NGC graded XF 45 appears to be original and accurately graded.  The photos on NGC certificate verification are a little clearer, especially when magnified.  

   You might want to end this thread, which has strayed significantly from its original topic about an 1893-S Morgan dollar.

I think your right that the topic has significantly morphed from the original intent of discussing the 1893-S Morgan, what whizzing is, and my options for completing that Morgan set including the possibility of acquiring an impaired coin at a reduced cost.

I did enjoy the thread drift into fake coins and things that may or may not be indicators, including widely varying mint mark locations and layout of dates for older coins.  It is also extremely helpful when I can post comments on coins either I or others post, and then get some feedback from other more experienced collectors or experts on this board.  That feedback is much appreciated and valued.

My final thoughts are that I will really have to hold some lower grade 1893-S Morgans in my hand to make a final call on that, just as I think I will have to hold the raw 1854-O coin I like more in my hand and closely examine it for potential issues, which I am getting more comfortable with.

Edited by EagleRJO
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Eagle, Sandon, I got interested in American Ninja and missed out on the half dollar. Most likely for the best. I found an excellent buy on a 1948 silver half crown to satisfy my hunger this week . VkurtB yes there is a Santa Claus!

Edited by Mr.Bill347
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Oh noooooooooo ... another whizzed Morgan. I have seen a number lately on eBay:whatthe:

Of course, the "Whizzed" or "Details" isn't in the listing header, go figure. I feel the coin crying out from the abuse! :insane:

1879-CC Morgan Whizzed.jpg

Edited by EagleRJO
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