Norweb Mexico and Central America catalogue 1 1

[World Colonial]

I just received it today.  Sale by Christie's in May of 1985.  850 lots (many with multiple coins) with many high-quality and legitimately rare coins which just goes to show what an extensive elite collection they owned.

I don't collect much of this coinage, only Mexican pillars and Lion & Castle quarter real occasionally.  But it's of interest to me to see what elite collections of the time acquired, pre-internet.   It wasn't the focus of their collection, so it's not possible to know if these collectors couldn't find what's missing or it wasn't important enough to them.

The pillar collection is mostly complete (many date and denomination combinations missing though) and the vast majority of the coins are in "better" grades, going by the images and descriptions, XF or better by current standards.  Appears to be "net" grading too.  Here is a partial list from the catalogue:

1702 Mexico royal 8E

1643 Mexico royal 4R

1732 Mexico 8R

1732 Mexico 4R, now graded NGC MS-64+.  Also sold by UBS Numismatics in 1988 and 1991 + Heritage recently.

1732 Mexico 1R, Gilboy plate coin.  Looks choice AU from images but listed as "strictly VF).

Guatemala 1758 4R, relatively common date but in a very uncommon quality.

[GoldFinger1969]

The Norwebs not only collected U.S. coins but foreign, too.

Their 1908-S MS-68 Saint could be the finest-looking Saint in existence.  David Akers thought so. 

[Zebo]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:16 PM, World Colonial said:

I just received it today.  Sale by Christie's in May of 1985.  850 lots (many with multiple coins) with many high-quality and legitimately rare coins which just goes to show what an extensive elite collection they owned.

I don't collect much of this coinage, only Mexican pillars and Lion & Castle quarter real occasionally.  But it's of interest to me to see what elite collections of the time acquired, pre-internet.   It wasn't the focus of their collection, so it's not possible to know if these collectors couldn't find what's missing or it wasn't important enough to them.

The pillar collection is mostly complete (many date and denomination combinations missing though) and the vast majority of the coins are in "better" grades, going by the images and descriptions, XF or better by current standards.  Appears to be "net" grading too.  Here is a partial list from the catalogue:

1702 Mexico royal 8E

1643 Mexico royal 4R

1732 Mexico 8R

1732 Mexico 4R, now graded NGC MS-64+.  Also sold by UBS Numismatics in 1988 and 1991 + Heritage recently.

1732 Mexico 1R, Gilboy plate coin.  Looks choice AU from images but listed as "strictly VF).

Guatemala 1758 4R, relatively common date but in a very uncommon quality.

Nice! It’s always a bit surprising what all these top collectors had in their collections. I’m going through an old catalog now and wow! Wish I was around then.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:07 AM, Zebo said:

Nice! It’s always a bit surprising what all these top collectors had in their collections. I’m going through an old catalog now and wow! Wish I was around then.

I have a few classic -- to me -- catalogs.  I have the Menjou 1950....Price 1998.....Duckor 2012...and the 1933 Double Eagle Sotheby's from 2002.

An eccletic collection that just happened to interest me, mostly with top-quality Saints for sale.  The price information is what intrigued me, especially when combined with the price matrixes from Roger's book and Red Books.  Easy to construct long-term price movements which always fascinate me.

Edited July 27, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Zebo]

I for one like tracking the provenance and owning a piece from great collections. Quality is most important, but provenance adds to the story and each coin has a story - some better than others…

[World Colonial]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:47 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The Norwebs not only collected U.S. coins but foreign, too.

Their 1908-S MS-68 Saint could be the finest-looking Saint in existence.  David Akers thought so. 

US was the primary focus of their collection.  I used to have the US catalogs from Bowers and Merena but don't remember where it went.

Edited July 27, 2022 by World Colonial

[World Colonial]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:57 AM, Zebo said:

I for one like tracking the provenance and owning a piece from great collections. Quality is most important, but provenance adds to the story and each coin has a story - some better than others…

My primary interest is to use this data as a reference point for what might be available in my areas of interest, primarily Lima and Potosi pillar 1/2R, 1R, 2R, and 4R.

Bolivia coinage is included in the Norweb South American catalogue which I have seen but just not bought.  170 lots to my recollection, probably mostly in Spanish cobs and Republic Bolivar pre-decimal which I do not collect.  Most of the catalog is Brazil, an area of no interest to me.

Norweb donated their Peru collection to the ANS.  It's available for viewing for a $50 administrative fee (maybe more now) but I can't get to NYC now.  I wanted to go on last work trip in December 2019 but could not.  ANS has a noticeable collection of this coinage (about 100 coins with some duplicates) but not images in MANTIS.

Norweb, Sellschopp (sold 1988), and Patterson (sold 1996) were pre-internet (and the three most comprehensive I know), so it was much harder to find difficult to find low priced coins (most or all of these) at the time.  Heritage sold Rudman's Mexico pillars in 2016.  The collection was complete by date/denomination with many varieties, but mostly of lower to average quality with a lot of "details" coins.  I don't know whether Rudman couldn't find better examples or didn't care.

The first three are better than mine (don't know if Rudman collect(ed) Peru) of course, but I have a more higher quality than Patterson and several dates missing from both Sellschopp and Patterson.  Most of the time with coins like this, coins missing from a "name" collection is an indication of relative scarcity and confirmation it's actually hard to find.

I'm not aware of any other "noticeable collections", though someone or a few today must have it and I just do not know it.  I've never seen most of these coins come up for sale since or for that matter, the few dates in the PCGS data I do not already own.

Edited July 27, 2022 by World Colonial

[zadok]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:23 PM, World Colonial said:

My primary interest is to use this data as a reference point for what might be available in my areas of interest, primarily Lima and Potosi pillar 1/2R, 1R, 2R, and 4R.

Bolivia coinage is included in the Norweb South American catalogue which I have seen but just not bought.  170 lots to my recollection, probably mostly in Spanish cobs and Republic Bolivar pre-decimal which I do not collect.  Most of the catalog is Brazil, an area of no interest to me.

Norweb donated their Peru collection to the ANS.  It's available for viewing for a $50 administrative fee (maybe more now) but I can't get to NYC now.  I wanted to go on last work trip in December 2019 but could not.  ANS has a noticeable collection of this coinage (about 100 coins with some duplicates) but not images in MANTIS.

Norweb, Sellschopp (sold 1988), and Patterson (sold 1996) were pre-internet (and the three most comprehensive I know), so it was much harder to find difficult to find low priced coins (most or all of these) at the time.  Heritage sold Rudman's Mexico pillars in 2016.  The collection was complete by date/denomination with many varieties, but mostly of lower to average quality with a lot of "details" coins.  I don't know whether Rudman couldn't find better examples or didn't care.

The first three are better than mine (don't know if Rudman collect(ed) Peru) of course, but I have a more higher quality than Patterson and several dates missing from both Sellschopp and Patterson.  Most of the time with coins like this, coins missing from a "name" collection is an indication of relative scarcity and confirmation it's actually hard to find.

I'm not aware of any other "noticeable collections", though someone or a few today must have it and I just do not know it.  I've never seen most of these coins come up for sale since or for that matter, the few dates in the PCGS data I do not already own.

...very informative synopsis...u have accurately presented the perils of collecting obscure areas of numismatics, little reference materials limited auction descriptions n results n infrequent availability...been there still there myself, as we have discussed before n of import to future collectors often the only means of determining true scarcity is the absence of coins in major collections...as i know u r aware mrs. norweb as well as eliasberg n brand often bought entire collections intact n then tried to add to them...regard the rudman collections, of which i had some competition with in registry sets, he wanted completeness but also went for quality, many of his coins were finest available...assembling complete presentable collections in some of the areas u r specializing in is a lifetime endeavor...kudos n enjoy....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:57 AM, Zebo said:

I for one like tracking the provenance and owning a piece from great collections. Quality is most important, but provenance adds to the story and each coin has a story - some better than others…

I would LOVE to own a high-end Saint that can trace it's lineage back to some great collectors or even some auction catalogs or auctions affiliated with folks like Mehl, Kosoff, etc.

[World Colonial]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:59 PM, zadok said:

.regard the rudman collections, of which i had some competition with in registry sets, he wanted completeness but also went for quality, many of his coins were finest available...assembling complete presentable collections in some of the areas u r specializing in is a lifetime endeavor...kudos n enjoy....

At one time, Rudman was in the top five in overall NGC registry points.  So, an extensive and top tier collection.

My assumption is that Rudman did try to find the best specimens he could, But I don't actually know it.  There are high quality coins (better than his) in the TPG data but maybe he didn't want to pay a noticeable premium to "market", even though he could afford it.  This isn't unusual.

The mints I collect are noticeably scarcer or at least harder to buy than Mexico, generally though not for every date/denomination.  I presume it's due to the mintages mostly.  For Mexico, the mintage data is recorded by 8R equivalents as a lump sum, not broken out by denomination.  Not sure why the Mexico City mint did this, as the others did not.

World Numismatics (aka, Mexican Coin Company) had a write-up on Ferdinand VI mintages on their website, but it must have been an estimate.  It wasn't on their website anymore last I looked and of course, my hard drive where I stored it crashed too.

Guatemala mintages are quite low, maxing out at about 20,000.  Bolivia lower than Peru mostly but the coins are still usually (a lot) more common, except in the better or highest quality.

Of the 86 coins in the four Peru denominations I buy, only a few mintages I consider low.  The coins just don't seem to have survived and of those that did, disproportionately as "dreck".  As an example, 1767 1/2R is recorded at 1,040,000.  However, from the description, I don't consider Sellschopp's or Patterson's to be of particular high quality.  Hard to know from the lack of images and inconsistent grading but it's not described as "high quality", like a mid-grade TPG AU.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:47 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The Norwebs not only collected U.S. coins but foreign, too.

Their 1908-S MS-68 Saint could be the finest-looking Saint in existence.  David Akers thought so. 

(Now the Mega Jackpot is over $1 billion.)

[Zebo]

On 7/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

(Now the Mega Jackpot is over $1 billion.)

Ya, but what is that in real money?

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:23 PM, Zebo said:

Ya, but what is that in real money?

Two dollars puts you in the running to win one thousand million dollars. Who cares how much money you wind up with eventually? My understanding is every state has its structure. I have no problem giving the USG its fair share.  🐓 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:23 PM, Zebo said:

Ya, but what is that in real money?

100 Mickey Mantle 1952 Topps cards.