$5 Indian Half Eagle & $20 Saint-Gauden Double Eagle Prices 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

Gold holders were cheated because (1) they gave up gold they didn't want to surrender, whatever the value and (2) they suffered the 40% loss that Eagle cited.

The revaluation was necessary to inflate the economy since the Fed and Benjamin Strong had been too tight from 1928-33.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/28/2022 at 2:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Gold holders were cheated because (1) they gave up gold they didn't want to surrender, whatever the value and (2) they suffered the 40% loss that Eagle cited.

I tend to think it was more of an issue or actually taking from people because gold (that was fixed at $20.67/oz since 1834) was way undervalued at the time vs world markets, and they knew that.  If they had first raised the price of gold to something reasonable like $32/oz or $33/oz, which is still a little less than what you could have sold it for in the open world market, and then required people to turn in their gold, I would be okay with that under eminent domain with "fair compensation".

And it didn't affect most people, so they just either went along with it or didn't turn in the gold coins they had stashed at home.  Not many people had more than five 1-oz gold coins then too.  It mostly effected wealthier people and businesses who kept the gold in banks, with the banks not letting people take it out after the EO's, and some of them got really screwed.  Like there was one Swiss company that had like 62,500 gold coins in a bank worth $2.10M in their home country (~$33.60/oz).  I think it was held in trust by an individual for some reason, even though it was for business use.  The US took all their coins and gave them $20 per coin or $1.25M in paper money.  They lost $850K ... talk about having a write off that year.  

On 7/28/2022 at 2:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The revaluation was necessary to inflate the economy since the Fed and Benjamin Strong had been too tight from 1928-33.

I understand why they had to do it, greater good of the people and all that.  Even the part about first taking the gold and then raising the price because it wouldn't have worked otherwise.  But I don't think the ends justified the means in that case, and they should have come up with another way to issue the money they needed, maybe deferred compensation like an Uncle Sam IOU or something, which the paper money was anyway at that point.

In any event, I don't look at gold prices before the early 1970's because it was fixed, including by FDR at $35/oz even though we were off the gold standard, which is where I think this whole discussion started.  And talking about that, does anyone think that gold at $1,695/oz on July 20th is a low pivot point?  Gold has been tanking along with the market, which may continue, but then again now might be a better time to scoop those double eagles I am looking at if that does turn out to be relatively low.

Edited July 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

On 7/28/2022 at 1:26 AM, EagleRJO said:

The EO's in April 1933 where just about confiscating people's gold, which they had to turn in by May 1933.  In Jan 1934 the Gold Reserve Act was passes to create a slush fund, allow FDR to raise the gold price (the whole plan), and repeated some of the EO provisions as there were some challenging the constitutionality of the EOs, but they already had their gold confiscated for paper money.

wow

I never promised you would like my responses.  Many do not.  What I stated about the EO is accurate. 

I agree it created a longer-term problem but the worst of it isn't what you stated.  Without this EO, the government we have today couldn't exist.  That's the problem.  Hardly anyone agrees with this statement either, since with a gold standard, no expansionary activist "progressive" government is possible as there is no mechanism to pay for it.  The majority of the population today and in the recent past love activist "progressive" expansionary government, they just want someone else to pay for their "free" benefits.

The problem with the civil forfeiture laws is the culture of endemic corruption it will eventually create if left in place.  It's small scale in the context of the economy but the problem isn't specifically the scale, but the incentives in creates in law enforcement to bypass public (budget) accountability and even worse, a mob equivalent shakedown protection racket to extort the public.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:47 AM, EagleRJO said:

I understand why they had to do it, greater good of the people and all that.

Doesn't make it right, taking the potential value of that gold from people.

Edited July 28, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:47 AM, EagleRJO said:

I tend to think it was more of an issue, or actually taking from people, because gold fixed at $20.67/oz since 1834 was way undervalued at the time vs world markets, and they knew that.  If they had first raised the price of gold to something reasonable like $32/oz or $33/oz, which is still a little less than what you could have sold it for in the open world market, and then required people to turn in their gold, I would be okay with that under eminent domain with fair compensation.

Roger's book notes that the low fixed-price meant that gold miners were LOSING $$$ and this reduced the new supply of gold -- which led to a tighter money supply leading to the problems of 1929.

On 7/28/2022 at 9:20 AM, World Colonial said:

I never promised you would like my responses.  Many do not.  What I stated about the EO is accurate. I agree it created a longer-term problem but the worst of it isn't what you stated.  Without this EO, the government we have today couldn't exist.  That's the problem.  Hardly anyone agrees with this statement either, since with a gold standard, no expansionary activist "progressive" government is possible as there is no mechanism to pay for it.  The majority of the population today and in the recent past love activist "progressive" expansionary government, they just want someone else to pay for their "free" benefits.

While a gold standard is a restraint on unlimited government spending, it's not a fail-safe.  The bigger problem is that during a crisis -- 2008 Financial Crisis, 2020 Covid Pandemic -- the central bank is restrained from providing maximum liquidity.  We saw how this worked out in 2011 during the European Debt Debacle.

On 7/28/2022 at 9:20 AM, World Colonial said:

The problem with the civil forfeiture laws is the culture of endemic corruption it will eventually create if left in place.  It's small scale in the context of the economy but the problem isn't specifically the scale, but the incentives in creates in law enforcement to bypass public (budget) accountability and even worse, a mob equivalent shakedown protection racket to extort the public.

I am more worried over too many people getting too many benefits paid for by too few people.  When many tax filers pay NOTHING, it creates a "who cares ?" situation for fiscal responsibility.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger's book notes that the low fixed-price meant that gold miners were LOSING $$$ and this reduced the new supply of gold -- which led to a tighter money supply leading to the problems of 1929.

Yea, and not only were the domestic gold miners not producing very much gold because of losing money at the current fixed price here, but foreign gold miners/refiners were not exporting any gold to the US because the fixed price here was $20.67/oz, compared to the low $30's/oz elsewhere w/o a gold standard.  Where are you going to sell your gold, here @ $20.67/oz or like Switzerland at $33.60/oz ... hmmm, let me think about that one.  

Btw, did you know that the FDR EOs were issued with authority granted by the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917?  

[World Colonial]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

While a gold standard is a restraint on unlimited government spending, it's not a fail-safe.  The bigger problem is that during a crisis -- 2008 Financial Crisis, 2020 Covid Pandemic -- the central bank is restrained from providing maximum liquidity.  We saw how this worked out in 2011 during the European Debt Debacle.

There is no absolute fail safe available, even without the limitation of the gold standard.  Modern economics believes it but it's a lie.  The reason there cannot be one is because ultimately, the state itself is subject to failure.  And no, the United States is not exempt from this comment either.

On 7/28/2022 at 10:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I am more worried over too many people getting too many benefits paid for by too few people.  When many tax filers pay NOTHING, it creates a "who cares ?" situation for fiscal responsibility.

Me too.  This is one of the primary root causes behind the failure of every nation state.  Ultimately, there are no exceptions, once the fundamentals underpinning the society erode sufficiently.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:06 PM, World Colonial said:

There is no absolute fail safe available, even without the limitation of the gold standard.  Modern economics believes it but it's a lie.  The reason there cannot be one is because ultimately, the state itself is subject to failure.  And no, the United States is not exempt from this comment either.

Maybe....but if it took 30 years for Greece's Socialist nonsense and fiscal gluttony to metastasize, how long will it take for a global financial reserve currency superpower to hit the debt wall ?

You and I won't be around to see it. 

[EagleRJO]

So, who is going to take a shot at identifying the low pivot point for bullion, so we can buy Saints at the low? 

I have darts!

Edited July 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

So, who is going to take a shot at identifying the low pivot point for bullion, so we can buy Saints at the low? 

I have darts!

Gold rallied the last few days.  Up about 4% or $70. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/29/2022 at 1:38 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Gold rallied the last few days.  Up about 4% or $70. 

Was down to $1,718 on 7/26 and was on the way up, but hitting some stumbling blocks the last day.  Crazy swings, like the market lately, but seems like a general downslide.  Maybe I will just buy some more bullion at $1,600/oz if it gets there.  But, would be nice to go back in time and buy some for $20 a coin/oz.  Scoop a few 1933 double eagles while I was at it. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

So, who is going to take a shot at identifying the low pivot point for bullion, so we can buy Saints at the low? 

I have darts!

The answer for any asset is the same - it’s time, not timing. Those who attempt to time any market are doomed to failure. I called the very very top of gold in 2011 TO THE DAY, while everyone else was predicting “to the moon”. And yes, this is on the record, thanks to cointelevision.com and the ANA’s Money Talks archives, then called “Numismatic Theater Talks”. The purpose of my talk was to refute everything Richard Nachbar had said the year before at Boston ANA. Nachbar has passed on, and amazingly, I’m still here. Aww, he never got to see fiat money collapse as he predicted. 

[EagleRJO]

Yea seemed high then to me too, and if someone tells you they can predict lows/highs ask them for the bridge instead.  Because even the experts who trade it for a living can't do that.  I have looked for low pivots instead in the past which has panned out pretty good, but I am at a loss lately with these crazy swings and why I mentioned I have darts.

Btw, how about one of these $1 Utah Gold Back's instead of actual gold ... well, it does have 0.03 grams of gold.  

Edited July 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 7/28/2022 at 12:32 PM, EagleRJO said:

Yea, and not only were the domestic gold miners not producing very much gold because of losing money at the current fixed price here, but foreign gold miners/refiners were not exporting any gold to the US because the fixed price here was $20.67/oz, compared to the low $30's/oz elsewhere w/o a gold standard.  Where are you going to sell your gold, here @ $20.67/oz or like Switzerland at $33.60/oz ... hmmm, let me think about that one.  

Btw, did you know that the FDR EOs were issued with authority granted by the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917?  

Cuban cigars too. 

[World Colonial]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe....but if it took 30 years for Greece's Socialist nonsense and fiscal gluttony to metastasize, how long will it take for a global financial reserve currency superpower to hit the debt wall ?

You and I won't be around to see it. 

Events do not unfold linearly, but in saying this I'm not anticipating this scenario now.  It won't happen with the 10YR UST at less than 3% and the DXY at 106.

[EagleRJO]

Are the first year 1907 Saints with no moto and the roman numerals on the edge worth a good premium of a little over $500 on top of a typ early 1900's Saint?

[And yes, the small numerals on the edge, as I think there is only one know version with the large numerals on the edge.]

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:40 AM, VKurtB said:

I called the very very top of gold in 2011 TO THE DAY, while everyone else was predicting “to the moon”.

But...did you call the subsequent or prior BOTTOMS ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/29/2022 at 6:26 PM, EagleRJO said:

Are the first year 1907 Saints with no moto and the roman numerals on the edge worth a good premium of a little over $500 on top of a typ early 1900's Saint? 

There are 1907 MCMVII High Reliefs.....and 1907 Arabic (1,2,3,.....) numerals.

https://coinmintages.com/saint-gaudens-double-eagle-mintage/

[EagleRJO]

On 7/29/2022 at 7:39 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

There are 1907 MCMVII High Reliefs.....and 1907 Arabic (1,2,3,.....) numerals.

It's not high relief, just small numerals on the edge.  The high relief would present differently than the pic posted.

Edited July 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[rons]

What an enjoyable thread. I enjoyed the knowledge and opinions being expressed. Thanks

 

[VKurtB]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:39 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But...did you call the subsequent or prior BOTTOMS ? 

No, because I am constantly rooting for gold to collapse. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:27 PM, VKurtB said:

... I am constantly rooting for gold to collapse. 

Please don't. I have put a lot into bullion the last few years. Yea, yea I know, that's my problem. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:15 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

BTW, we also have (occasionally) the only holder of a 1933 Double Eagle posting here, but if you want to buy that one, it'll cost you a wee bit more than $1,900. 

Wow, I just saw some numbers related to auctions for the only 1933 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle that can be legally owned by an individual.  World record for a coin at auction in June of 2021.  So, has the buyer revealed themselves if they are posting here, since at the time I believe they purchased it anonymously, or are you referring to Stuart Weitzman the previous owner of the coin?

And maybe they know where I can get one of the early Double Eagles for like $1,900, but that's probably like pocket change for them. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:28 AM, EagleRJO said:

Wow, I just saw some numbers related to auctions for the only 1933 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle that can be legally owned by an individual.  World record for a coin at auction in June of 2021.  So, has the buyer revealed themselves if they are posting here, since at the time I believe they purchased it anonymously, or are you referring to Stuart Weitzman the previous owner of the coin?  And maybe they know where I can get one of the early Double Eagles for like $1,900, but that's probably like pocket change for them. 

We just know him/her by their registry name, "Elite Collection."  Has made some interesting posts and very courteous, hope he/she sticks around and posts more.  But no, we have no idea who their real identity is (Clark Kent ? ) since they do not want it public to arouse bidding problems for coins they seek out.

I do have the Justice League working on their secret identity and will report back....

[EagleRJO]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:31 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But no, we have no idea who their real identity is (Clark Kent ? ) since they do not want it public

Thats fine with me and makes sense with all the "gold diggers" (pun intended) out there.  Sounds like they may be more of a real purist type collector and didn't get the coin to show off or anything.  I was just curious.  Maybe by changing the thread title to include Double Eagles [yes, that worked] they might make an appearance. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:50 AM, EagleRJO said:

Thats fine with me and makes sense with all the "gold diggers" (pun intended) out there.  Sounds like they may be more of a real purist type collector and didn't get the coin to show off or anything.  I was just curious.  Maybe by changing the thread title to include Double Eagles [yes, that worked] they might make an appearance.   ... 

Their registry is under "Elite Collection" over ATS....and EC has posted a few times in the RWB Saints Book Thread. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:47 PM, EagleRJO said:

Here is one from GC that might go for a good price with the damaged holder, which I don't care about.  I can crack that puppy out with a pair of snips and just keep the label for future reference.  

Was going to bid on this Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle earlier but I didn't even bother because it was already up close to $2k and went for $2,012 in the end with a damaged/scratched holder.  Oh, well I guess JP was right about everyone looking for a deal, and then ending up bidding it up anyway.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/29/2022 at 6:26 PM, EagleRJO said:

Are the first year 1907 Saints with no moto and the roman numerals on the edge worth a good premium of a little over $500 on top of a typ early 1900's Saint? And yes, the small numerals on the edge, as I think there is only one know version with the large numerals on the edge.

Eagle, this question of yours never got directly answered.  I'm just going by the price matrix in Roger's book, not recent auctions.....but I am seeing the 1907 getting scarce in MS65 & above.  If you stick to MS63-64, it should trade at a 20-25% premium to lower-rated or bullion coins that track gold.

Go lower in grade and you can probably pick it up for a 10% premium to spot I would think.

Edited August 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

I have been looking at MS60 to MS62 like the one above, but they have been going for over $2k (with a BP) or about 15% over spot, even with a damaged holder. I am keeping my eyes open and just being patient for prices to come back down from the unusual price spike earlier this year.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

I have been looking at MS60 to MS62 like the one above, but they have been going for over $2k (with a BP) or about 15% over spot, even with a damaged holder. I am keeping my eyes open and just being patient for prices to come back down from the unusual price spike earlier this year.

Or....wait for gold to move UP and maybe the price boosts here lag.  Good Luck !!

P.S.  I don't think the asking prices are outrageous but I agree wth your being patient.  Coins -- like stocks -- are always there (unless you are chasing a unique coin).... so you can always buy....so patience is worthwhile.