$5 Indian Half Eagle & $20 Saint-Gauden Double Eagle Prices 1 1

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:42 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think -- I have to check my records -- that when I say $30 over spot, Eagle, I mean actual cost and NOT adjusting for the 3% less gold.  So in theory that might add another 3% to the cost.  Again, from my perspective, since I value the (lower) grade and the holder, I'm OK with paying a total of $75 or so over spot.

Rounding off to just an ounce would make sense, so buying a little over spot around $1,800 for a Saint would work.  But I think an issue I'm finding is that a lot of people probably didn't wait for relative lows in the spot price to buy them, like I did with bullion.  So, maybe a more realistic range would be around $1,900 to $2,000 for those Saints.

[World Colonial]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:49 AM, EagleRJO said:

I still can't believe that the US Government did that to people in 1933, mandating everyone turn in their gold bars at a fixed price of $20.67/oz, and then after they had "confiscated" everyone's gold at a low price they raised the fixed price to $35/oz which benefited them.  Really?

Someone here once mentioned there was a $100 exemption.

But more generically, I can easily believe it.  It's typical government behavior.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:43 AM, World Colonial said:

Someone here once mentioned there was a $100 exemption.  But more generically, I can easily believe it.  It's typical government behavior.  

Only one candidate in 1932 was running on that stealth campaign.  I don't think Hoover would have done it if re-elected.

The exemption was $100 (5 gold double eagles), plus numismatic and artistic exemptions plus gold dealers/collectors also were exempted.

RWB probably goes into this in-depth in one of his books, maybe the Saints Book.

[EagleRJO]

I don't think there is any way that something like the "Great Government Gold Heist of 1933" would fly today.  And about the bullion, attached is the actual executive order No. 6102.  It looks like Section 2 required all coins and bullion to be turned in, with the only exemption for individuals contained in Section 2(b) which allowed people to keep "gold coin and gold certificates" not to exceed $100 in total for each person, as well as "gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins", with no bullion exemption for individuals.  The other exemptions 2(a), 2(c) and 2(d) which do include gold bullion were only for business and industry (e.g. jewelers, dentists, dealers, banks, etc.).  I would have had all my gold coins immediately graded.   

Wish I could find a Saint in good condition for $20 ... I would settle for $1,900.    

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:14 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't think there is any way that something like the "Great Government Gold Heist of 1933" would fly today.  

I'll take the "under" on this "bet".  You're familiar with civil asset forfeitures, right?  That's a lot worse.

[VKurtB]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:50 PM, World Colonial said:

I'll take the "under" on this "bet".  You're familiar with civil asset forfeitures, right?  That's a lot worse.

It is indeed. The standard of proof is nearly non-existent and the lack of anything reasonably resembling “due process” would make medieval  monarchs blush. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:50 PM, World Colonial said:

You're familiar with civil asset forfeitures, right?  That's a lot worse.

I don't agree it's the same or worse.  It doesn't apply to every person, only people where there is reasonable suspicion or evidence of illegal drug trafficking, and unlike the FDR steal it can be challenged.  Just illegal fentanyl trafficking alone kills 100k Americans every year.  So, it allows law enforcement to hit um where it hurts right off the bat, in the wallet, before they can burry everything after being arrested or realizing someone is on to them which was a problem.  But that is a debate for another place and time.

Now, who can help me find these $1,900 Saints?  Maybe @RWB can help?  I mean it looks like we have one of the foremost experts on Saints in our mists.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:30 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't agree it's the same or worse.  It doesn't apply to every person, only people where there is reasonable suspicion or evidence of illegal drug trafficking, and unlike the FDR steal it can be challenged.  Just illegal fentanyl trafficking alone kills 100k Americans every year.  So, it allows law enforcement to hit um where it hurts right off the bat, in the wallet, before they can burry everything after being arrested or realizing someone is on to them which was a problem.  But that is a debate for another place and time.

Now, who can help me find these $1,900 Saints?  Maybe @RWB can help?  I mean it looks like we have one of the foremost experts on Saints in our mists.  

 

Presumed innocent until proven guilty.  It's unconstitutional, plain and simple.

The 1933 Executive Order didn't involve a "taking".  It was the devaluation afterwards that did that.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:30 PM, EagleRJO said:

Now, who can help me find these $1,900 Saints?

I'm running into this a lot.  Even if the hammer price is the min bid at $2,000 that's $2,200 total with a 10% buyers' fee.  I'll keep looking until RWB hooks us up with the secret to buying all those Saints dirt cheap.  

[RWB]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:30 PM, EagleRJO said:

Now, who can help me find these $1,900 Saints?  Maybe @RWB can help?

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I neither buy nor sell coins. Everything I write and publish is based on the best available information obtained from primary sources, and without commercial bias.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:53 PM, RWB said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I neither buy nor sell coins.

[J P M]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:43 PM, EagleRJO said:

I'm running into this a lot.  Even if the hammer price is the min bid at $2,000 that's $2,200 total with a 10% buyers' fee.  I'll keep looking until RWB hooks us up with the secret to buying all those Saints dirt cheap.  

The starting bid is to high already in my opinion and even when you find a good deal everyone else is looking for one to and( Auto bid ) will almost always win. The 12.5 % buyers fee is still the best around if you can win the bid low enough and there is also a upcharge now if you use a credit card or PayPal. All the extras can add up fast on a high price coin. I wish you luck Jo. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:14 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't think there is any way that something like the "Great Government Gold Heist of 1933" would fly today. 

MOST people back then -- like my relatives -- did NOT have much in the way of gold.  Either nothing or maybe 1 or 2 of the smaller coins.  As Roger and others have said here, you'd have to be upper middle class or above to have 5 or more Double Eagles just lying around.

With the Depression at its nadir...with 25% of the population out of work...with people worrying about shelter and food....a few million people having to turn in gold wasn't a concern to the other 60-70 million adults.

Edited July 27, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:14 PM, EagleRJO said:

Wish I could find a Saint in good condition for $20 ... I would settle for $1,900.   

I haven't checked lately -- I will when I get a chance (busy day today with the Fed ) -- but what is the total all-in cost via HA and GC for a common Saint (like a 1924) in MS-63 or MS-62 condition ?

You SHOULD be able to grab one of those, even in the holders, for bullion plus a modest premium, if not at the auction sites than maybe direct from APMEX or Ebay (reputable seller) or your LCS.

Edited July 27, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:59 PM, VKurtB said:

It is indeed. The standard of proof is nearly non-existent and the lack of anything reasonably resembling “due process” would make medieval  monarchs blush. 

Isn't that mostly used against criminal enterprises, drug dealers, RICO folks, etc. ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:30 PM, EagleRJO said:

Now, who can help me find these $1,900 Saints?  Maybe @RWB can help?  I mean it looks like we have one of the foremost experts on Saints in our mists. 

Yup...you weren't aware that RWB was on these forums ?  Same guy as the author of that book which I bought and read 2 years ago.  Get the book, you'll love it.   

BTW, we also have (occasionally) the only holder of a 1933 Double Eagle posting here, but if you want to buy that one, it'll cost you a wee bit more than $1,900. 

I'll look around for you on the Saints.....have you checked your LCS ?  If you just want a common Saint or Liberty in low-Mint State, you shouldn't have to pay $200 or more over spot (unless silver-like premiums are now embedded in Saints).

Edited July 27, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:31 PM, World Colonial said:

Presumed innocent until proven guilty.  It's unconstitutional, plain and simple.

If restitution takes place, I don't know about that.  Plus, as Eagle said, the law is used against those only in specific situations involving criminal behavior with a high risk of flight risk, asset concealment, etc.

We just haven't seen it used against a couple having dinner with their children at the supper table.  It's mostly used against drug lords.

On 7/26/2022 at 9:31 PM, World Colonial said:

The 1933 Executive Order didn't involve a "taking".  It was the devaluation afterwards that did that.

Nah, it was the 1933 EO. 

I don't care if they declared the value of gold $1.00 an ounce and SAVED the American holders of gold money by avoiding the re-valuation downward....you can't TAKE what isn't yours. 

I still don't know how/why the Sutherland Supreme Court didn't strike this down....I'll have to check to see if it reached that high.  In the Saints Thread and maybe the Saints Book, Roger I think talked about a few court cases where some big holders of gold had theirs seized and they went to court to get it back.

 

[VKurtB]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Isn't that mostly used against criminal enterprises, drug dealers, RICO folks, etc. ?

Alleged. And all it takes is the word of ONE incredibly stoopid or corrupt cop. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If restitution takes place, I don't know about that.  Plus, as Eagle said, the law is used against those only in specific situations involving criminal behavior with a high risk of flight risk, asset concealment, etc.

Bingo!  This time you win the kewpie doll! 

I don't know if either the FDR gold heist or asset seizure is constitutional or not, particularly for the latter considering there are restitution and challenge provisions which the FDR gold heist did not have.  And with the FRD heist it was taking (the value of personal property) because they did know the gold price would be raised from $20.67/oz ($433/oz in 2021) to $35/oz ($733/oz in 2021), as that was the whole plan to increase the money supply, which could not have been done without that bump.

And they used a wartime provisionto do it, even though we were not at war.  I will leave it up to layers, judges and civil liberty orgs to figure out if either is constitutional or not.  But the bottom line is I think the FRD gold was worse because it applied to everyone, regardless of who had more than $100 in gold coins at the time, and not just criminals.

On 7/27/2022 at 9:15 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll look around for you on the Saints.....have you checked your LCS ?  If you just want a common Saint or Liberty in low-Mint State, you shouldn't have to pay $200 or more over spot (unless silver-like premiums are now embedded in Saints).

Yea, I will keep looking, but I think JP is right that when those deals do come up there will be others looking for the same deal, and it just takes one knucklehead to overbid when it just started out as a good deal.  In the meantime, I will also keep one eye out for the slabbed one with the "Prospector" label I liked which maybe will come down in price as gold continues to drop or at least stay relatively lower.

Edited July 28, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If restitution takes place, I don't know about that.  Plus, as Eagle said, the law is used against those only in specific situations involving criminal behavior with a high risk of flight risk, asset concealment, etc.

We just haven't seen it used against a couple having dinner with their children at the supper table.  It's mostly used against drug lords.

Nah, it was the 1933 EO. 

I only know what I have read, which I can't confirm but it can't be all wrong because it's from too many sources.

No one should have to incur the expense of going to court to recover their own property without even being charged with anything.  That's what I would expect in Bizarro World, not a supposedly "law abiding country" supposedly protecting private property rights. 

On 7/27/2022 at 9:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't care if they declared the value of gold $1.00 an ounce and SAVED the American holders of gold money by avoiding the re-valuation downward....you can't TAKE what isn't yours. 

I don't disagree with you.

[EagleRJO]

Here is one from GC that might go for a good price with the damaged holder, which I don't care about.  I can crack that puppy out with a pair of snips and just keep the label for future reference.  

[World Colonial]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:38 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't know if either the FDR gold heist or asset seizure is constitutional or not, particularly for the latter considering there are restitution and challenge provisions which the FDR gold heist did not have. 

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the US Constitution providing for EO.  That's a form of law making which is supposed to be reserved to Congress, but someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Anyone can challenge an EO or statute in court, whether either "permit" it or not.  That's irrelevant.  Whether they will succeed or not is a different story.

the point I was making is that the FDR EO didn't leave the person any worse off financially at the time of the exchange.  The $20 FRN they received in exchange for their Saint or $20 Liberty could still buy the same thing.

There is no analogy with civil forfeiture because the property owner is left with nothing, subject to proving they obtained the property lawfully in court.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:39 PM, World Colonial said:

No one should have to incur the expense of going to court to recover their own property without even being charged with anything.  That's what I would expect in Bizarro World, not a supposedly "law abiding country" supposedly protecting private property rights.

And when exactly has that happen, that's not just an isolated incident?  There are occasional issues with our system like where people are charged/prosecuted for a crime they didn't commit, which isn't perfect, but still the best system in the world imo.

On 7/27/2022 at 1:39 PM, World Colonial said:

the point I was making is that the FDR EO didn't leave the person any worse off financially at the time of the exchange.  The $20 FRN they received in exchange for their Saint or $20 Liberty could still buy the same thing.   

I don't know how you are missing this, so I will try one last time.  You lost ~40% of the value of any gold confiscated.  The US knew they had to raise the fixed value of gold from the then present $20.67/oz, fixed in 1834 almost 100 yrs. earlier which they knew was low compared to its value, to the subsequent $35/oz. ("fair market valuation" at that time) to issue more money.  But the gold they had on hand was not enough (due to "hoarding") to print the amount of money they wanted, which had to be backed by gold at that time.  So, they forced everyone. even some businesses who had a lot of gold, to turn it in at $20.67/oz and were given paper money, and then raised the gold price to a fair valuation.

If you had for example 10 1-oz gold coins (rounding) or 10 oz of gold bullion at the time that had to be turned in you were given $206.70 in paper money, when it was actually worth (what it was subsequently raised to) $35/oz or $350.00.  If you tried to get your gold back after you could, that $206.70 in paper money would only buy 5.9 oz of gold at $35/oz.  So, they would have taken 4.1 oz of your gold (~40%) or $143.30, the difference in value.  [And that is why it's called the Great Government Gold Heist of 1933.]

Edited July 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:47 PM, EagleRJO said:

Here is one from GC that might go for a good price with the damaged holder, which I don't care about.  I can crack that puppy out with a pair of snips and just keep the label for future reference.  

Does anyone think that the minor damage to the holder is really an issue (chips on the sides as noted, and maybe a few dings on the face), because it sounds like the holder is intact and just has some minor damage.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

Does anyone think that the minor damage to the holder is really an issue (chips on the sides as noted, and maybe a few dings on the face), because it sounds like the holder is intact and just has some minor damage.

No, because if you really want...if/when you ever bulk-submit a few coins, ask for a new holder from PCGS and they should probably give you a decent price.  So you spend maybe another $30 on a holder without a re-grade.  I think they will do that.  At least I would hope so ! 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

Does anyone think that the minor damage to the holder is really an issue (chips on the sides as noted, and maybe a few dings on the face), because it sounds like the holder is intact and just has some minor damage.

Not for a 1908 No Motto which you are buying as a bullion substitute and just to have a Saint.  On a nicer coin, more expensive....it would bother me.

But not for a common Saint. 

 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not for a 1908 No Motto which you are buying as a bullion substitute and just to have a Saint.  On a nicer coin, more expensive....it would bother me.

But not for a common Saint. 

 

Even if I cracked the holder and re-slabbed (keeping the label), it would fit right in with the gold eagles I have.  

Plus, my TPG membership is with NGC where I plan to submit any coins that may need TPG grading, so they would probably start over anyway.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

And while I'm looking to scoop some early Double Eagles and Half Eagles, I might as well scoop one of these 1841 (P) circulated Quarter Eagles.   

Circulation Strike 1841 Quarter Eagles from Philadelphia Mint Recognized by PCGS | CoinNews

Glad I'm not collecting Quarter Eagles, offff.

[World Colonial]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:49 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't know how you are missing this, so I will try one last time.  You lost ~40% of the value of any gold confiscated.  The US knew they had to raise the fixed value of gold from the then present $20.67/oz, fixed in 1834 almost 100 yrs. earlier which they knew was low compared to its value, to the subsequent $35/oz. ("fair market valuation" at that time) to issue more money.  But the gold they had on hand was not enough (due to "hoarding") to print the amount of money they wanted, which had to be backed by gold at that time.  So, they forced everyone. even some businesses who had a lot of gold, to turn it in at $20.67/oz and were given paper money, and then raised the gold price to a fair valuation.

The $20 FRN someone received at the time bought exactly what the Saint or $20 Liberty involved in the exchange.

I know the two were related, the EO and the change in the fixed price.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/27/2022 at 6:22 PM, World Colonial said:

I know the two were related, the EO and the change in the fixed price.

The EO's in April 1933 where just about confiscating people's gold, which they had to turn in by May 1933.  In Jan 1934 the Gold Reserve Act was passes to create a slush fund, allow FDR to raise the gold price (the whole plan), and repeated some of the EO provisions as there were some challenging the constitutionality of the EOs, but they already had their gold confiscated for paper money.

On 7/27/2022 at 6:22 PM, World Colonial said:

The $20 FRN someone received at the time bought exactly what the Saint or $20 Liberty involved in the exchange.

wow