Are DDO and DDR attributes acknowledged by TPG’ s on Medieval coins? 1 1

[Walter Holmes]

Here’s an example of mechanical doubling on a 1650 Liondaalder. Should be attributed as DDR. Any chance this would be accepted if submitted? 

[RWB]

Don't know about your coin. 1650 is not "medieval" (abut 5th to 15th centuries)

Edited July 21, 2022 by RWB

[Oldhoopster]

Mechanical doubling is not true doubling and will not be attributed as a DDO.  Wexler, on his doubled die site calls it "worthless doubling".

[DWLange]

Actual medieval coins are crudely made for the most part, and it would be nearly impossible to distinguish die doubling from strike doubling, so they answer to the original question is "no."

[physics-fan3.14]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:07 PM, Walter Holmes said:

Here’s an example of mechanical doubling on a 1650 Liondaalder. Should be attributed as DDR. Any chance this would be accepted if submitted? 

No, absolutely not - because it is not a DDR. That is strike doubling. Almost all hammered coins were hit more than once (or, had hammer bounce, giving a faint second impression). The very idea of a "hub doubled" coin implies machine produced coinage, with hubs and dies. A DDR requires a second impression of the hub on the die with some rotation - and that's not how coins were made at this time. Each die was individually crafted. There was no such thing as a hub - and so there was no such thing as a DDR. 

Now, there are many known varieties where the die was changed to alter an element, such as a date change where the remnants of the old date were not completely eradicated, or a letter was punched wrong and then repunched (sometimes with a different letter). You get an A over E variety, for example, or a 7 over 4. Those are usually recognized if they are well known enough. 

[Conder101]

Doubling from repunching could occur (assuming they were using punches and not hand engraving the dies) but the doubling would be on individual elements  and if two items were repunched the doubling would most likely not be the same on both  As Physics said a DDO or DDR would require the use of a hub and that didn't come till much later.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Conder101

[VKurtB]

I’m afraid all responders here flew way over the OP’s head. 

[zadok]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:03 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m afraid all responders here flew way over the OP’s head. 

...me thinks the OP was thinking bout medieval pubs not hubs n there is evidence of viewers having DDV (double vision) n possibly DDP (double paying) but those days r far behind us except for certain mint products or to simplify as QA would do...what DWL, Physics n Conder said...

[Walter Holmes]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:03 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m afraid all responders here flew way over the OP’s head. 

Quite frankly, I found the reply from @DWLange to be concise and on point to the question. Although, the coin was erroneously listed as Medieval, I do thank those who took the time to address the specific issue. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:47 AM, Walter Holmes said:

Quite frankly, I found the reply from @DWLange to be concise and on point to the question. Although, the coin was erroneously listed as Medieval, I do thank those who took the time to address the specific issue. 

This is NOT only directed at you. Gawd knows it is a curse on this hobby for decades, but this eternal fascination with anything doubled is simply out of control and needs to be tamped down. I really wonder if this was much of a “thing” before the famous 1955 cent. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:03 AM, VKurtB said:

This is NOT only directed at you. Gawd knows it is a curse on this hobby for decades, but this eternal fascination with anything doubled is simply out of control and needs to be tamped down. I really wonder if this was much of a “thing” before the famous 1955 cent. 

...good question...i dont think so, the early collectors paid considerable attention to overdates, see Overton's bust halves, n acknowledged reluctantly recut dates if pronounced enuf...even the seated collectors didnt start getting excited bout doubled dates until well into the 70s, i recall going to the Bergen auction n buying all of the 1844/44-0 halves for a mere pittance with virtually no competition...i too believe the fascination (read money) started with the 1955 DDO n the substantial price increases n then was crystalized when the lesser 1972 DDO cent was recognized...all of this DD this n that has taken on a life of its own, mostly profit driven...old time collectors would have given it no heed....

[Walter Holmes]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:03 AM, VKurtB said:

This is NOT only directed at you. Gawd knows it is a curse on this hobby for decades, but this eternal fascination with anything doubled is simply out of control and needs to be tamped down. I really wonder if this was much of a “thing” before the famous 1955 cent. 

Lol! To be honest I didn’t pay much  attention to the doubling until a coin dealer at a show insisted it was a DDO/ DDR. Such error coins aren’t my thing. I prefer straight up graded Morgans and Greek ancients. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:48 PM, Walter Holmes said:

Lol! To be honest I didn’t pay much  attention to the doubling until a coin dealer at a show insisted it was a DDO/ DDR. Such error coins aren’t my thing. I prefer straight up graded Morgans and Greek ancients. 

I’m with you on the Greek stuff. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:48 PM, Walter Holmes said:

a coin dealer at a show insisted it was a DDO/ DDR

This is further proof that many “coin dealers” don’t know their butts from a hole in the ground. There is no licensing to call yourself a coin dealer. 

[Walter Holmes]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:59 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m with you on the Greek stuff. 

I find the Greeks fascinating. Have been picking some up on Heritage Auctions  and very pleased with both pricing and quality. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:25 PM, Walter Holmes said:

I find the Greeks fascinating. Have been picking some up on Heritage Auctions  and very pleased with both pricing and quality. 

I’m only dabbling at this point, buying only at lesser auctions, but my book collection for Ancient Greek coins is growing. I actually did start with the books. 

[VKurtB]

I keep intending to shop for Greek coins in CNG auctions, but I end up bidding on British more often. I can get to see them in the hand when I get back to Pennsylvania, or remotely when it’s a case in which condition is less of an issue. Example: Plantagenet kings. I imagine William Wallace paintin’ his face bleu and charging at Stirling Bridge. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by VKurtB

[Walter Holmes]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:22 PM, VKurtB said:

I keep intending to shop for Greek coins in CNG auctions, but I end up bidding on British more often. I can get to see them in the hand when I get back to Pennsylvania, or remotely when it’s a case in which condition is less of an issue. Example: Plantagenet kings. I imagine William Wallace paintin’ his face bleu and charging at Stirling Bridge. 

Having ancestors that were Border Reivers I  am well versed on the Platagenet Kings. It must be a marvelous collection. Rich in history with hero's and scoundrels. Wallace swinging his infamous claymore as he faced  the enemy. 

[Conder101]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:03 AM, VKurtB said:

I really wonder if this was much of a “thing” before the famous 1955 cent.

Probably not as the 1955 DDO cent has one of the largest displacements between the images in the US series.  (some of the doubled dies in the shield nickel series are greater, but who pays attention to shield nickels)  Most doubled dies have only slight displacement, and the coin with the greatest separation isn't visually impressive because the first hubbing either wasn't that deep or was mostly wiped out by the second hubbing. (a seated dime DDR wish nearly a 180 degree rotation between hubbings.  1872 if I remember correctly.)  there was interest in repunching in the early coin series, but mostly for die variety identification.

[DWLange]

It took about five years for the 1955 DDO to begin bringing a strong premium. When first found these coins were called "Shift Cents," and no one knew what to make of them. They were released mostly in upstate New York and western Massachusetts, so Empire Coin Company (a partnership of Q. David Bowers and James Ruddy in Johnson City, NY) was offered quite a few of them shortly after they appeared. QDB wrote about how he bought a couple dozen or so but then paused, because it wasn't certain that they'd become popular. Inclusion in the Red Book by 1960 guaranteed them a good market and drew attention to many other DDO and DDR varieties for the first time.

[VKurtB]

One of these fine days, I’m going to research The Numismatist articles for the first mention of the 1955 DDO or “Shifties”. I don’t really feel I need to rummage through NARA archives for knowledge about numismatic things, particularly the state of knowledge in the hobby The “The Numismatist” archives back to Volume 1, Issue 1 is good enough for most purposes. But only CURRENT ANA members get that access. We (actually “I”) already know who first recognized that the 1994 nickels in the Jefferson Coin & Currency Set were special. It was pointed out by an article in Numismatic News written by Whom Again?  Oh yeah, it was me. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by VKurtB