Coin Grading Examples 1903-S 1 1

[EagleRJO]

So here is the next group with three raw 1903-S Morgan Dollar coins I saw listed where I'll take a shot at grading them and get some feedback to continue getting better at evaluating grade.  Again, I'm using current PCGS grading example photos and descriptions, as well as descriptions specific to Morgan Dollars in the Red Book.

(1) I would say it's a VF.  Moderate wear throughout and loss of some detail like hair lines near the eye on obv, and eagle feathers on the left wing and breast.  Letters, numbers, rim and major design features remain clear even if worn a bit.  I was thinking at first it might be a borderline F-VF due to the wear of the eagle feathers and what may be some wear of the rim on the obv at 5 o'clock, but for F you would expect half of the detail worn flat which is not the case.  Has a small S or micro-S just as an FYI.

(2) I would say it's a XF+.  Only Light wear at high points.  Rim, letters, numbers and major features clear and visible.  Features like rim, hair lines, ear and eagle feathers bold, except on breast of eagle which shows some wear.  The only thing about this one which seemed a little off was somewhat of a whitewashed appearance, but it may just be the photo is not that great with some reflection.

(3) I would say it's borderline XF-AU, or AU- if there was such a thing.  Not very much wear at all, except maybe some feathers on eagle's breast. Rim, letters, numbers and major features all clear and bold.  I was thinking it may be a low-end AU, but there are just too many dings, scraps or scuff marks.

Edited July 17, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

Just to preface, I would not recommend or buy any of these three.

1)  Commercial VF, but it presents as a cleaned and retoned coin for the photos.

2)  Total POS, clearly polished details grade coin and only worth melt.   Not a coin to buy for collecting unless your collecting goal is silver stacking.

3)  Has XF detail but photos of coins inside 2X2's can be very deceptive and the coin has a scrubbed look to it imo.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:06 PM, Coinbuf said:

Just to preface, I would not recommend or buy any of these three.

1)  Commercial VF, but it presents as a cleaned and retoned coin for the photos.

2)  Total POS, clearly polished details grade coin and only worth melt.   Not a coin to buy for collecting unless your collecting goal is silver stacking.

3)  Has XF detail but photos of coins inside 2X2's can be very deceptive and the coin has a scrubbed look to it imo.

Thanks, I only included (1) for grading purposes, but it was a "Micro S" which could kill 2 birds except it doesn't fit with my min XF grade.  And my gut feeling about (2) was that something was off, like dipped, cleaned, etc.  I did like (3) as something to consider if priced right for an XF.

I also saw the attached (4) 1903-S which I also though was an XF

Edited July 18, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

To me, all the coins so far in this post look to have been cleaned in some way.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:12 AM, J P Mashoke said:

To me, all the coins so far in this post look to have been cleaned in some way.

Thanks for the help.  Were the scuff marks I was seeing on (1) an indication of cleaning (e.g. in the field behind the head, by the nose and around the eagle feathers)?

And I thought (2) might have been dipped or cleaned/buffed, cause something was bothering me about that coin. Is that the kind of white-washed appearance a lot of eBay coins have from cleaning/dipping?

Also (4) seemed to have some toning, and what appeared to be just some scuff marks in the field around the eagle's feathers. How do you fake that toning?

Edited July 18, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

Cleaning a coin could be rubbing it with a finger or shirt. I see many coins that have been graded cleaned that I can hardly see a thing wrong at all. 

[BryanMcIntosh]

On 7/18/2022 at 4:13 AM, EagleRJO said:

Thanks, I only included (1) for grading purposes, but it was a "Micro S" which could kill 2 birds except it doesn't fit with my min XF grade.  And my gut feeling about (2) was that something was off, like dipped, cleaned, etc.  I did like (3) as something to consider if priced right for an XF.

I also saw the attached (4) 1903-S which I also though was an XF
Often when I had problems with writing exams I used the service for students to buy research papers for my study. It really helped me to save time and prepare properly.

• Gosh that looks great.

Edited July 20, 2022 by BryanMcIntosh

[EagleRJO]

Here is another one I was trying to grade.  I think I would have graded it Fine (wear of the hair, feathers, wreath, rev rim, etc.), but there looks like a scratch on the rev right side of the eagle.  Maybe that makes it a G/VG?  Also, what about the dark spots (e.g. around some letters and the neck)?

[RWB]

#1 Fine.

#2 Damaged. No grade.

#3 Cleaned EF.

[EagleRJO]

Where/what is the damage (other than maybe possible polishing/dipping) that would keep #2 form being graded?

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2022 at 10:45 AM, EagleRJO said:

Where/what is the damage (other than maybe possible polishing/dipping) that would keep #2 form being graded?

You need to take an opportunity to examine gradable coins already in slabs. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:34 PM, VKurtB said:

You need to take an opportunity to examine gradable coins already in slabs. 

I have, which is why I am asking the question.  It does seem a little overly shiny/reflective, but I am not sure if that's because it's a cleaned/polished coin (likely is), or just a poor picture with reflections off of the plastic cover, or if that's what he was referring to at all.  And in my mind a cleaned/polished coin with no grade as a result of that (e.g. cleaned - details only) is different than "Damaged. No grade".  I have seen graded dinged, scraped and scratched coins "details" graded, but no number.  So as a less experienced collector I am left wondering what exactly the damage is which prevents even details grading, and the question remains.

[VKurtB]

The shininess of the fields that suddenly goes away NEAR the lettering is a first really good clue. 

[EagleRJO]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:03 PM, VKurtB said:

The shininess of the fields that suddenly goes away NEAR the lettering is a first really good clue. 

okay, so shiny fields that becomes less shiny towards the letters which is damage and not cleaning ... hmmmmm ... do I get 3 questions to solve the newbie puzzle?

Q1. Is it chemical damage? ...

BTW ... I was getting confused because I think of even physical cleaning as "Cleaned - No Grade" and not as "damaged - no grade".

And I get a kick out of these shysters who list a coin on eBay as "PCGS Graded AU" and then something like "Nice Details!" with just a pic of the blast white coin, and when you ask to see the label it of course says "AU  DETAILS" and "CLEANED" below that ... ;-)

Edited July 19, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:18 PM, EagleRJO said:

okay, so shiny fields that becomes less shiny towards the letters which is damage and not cleaning ... hmmmmm

... do I get 3 questions to solve the newbie puzzle?

It’s the DAMAGE from CLEANING. I do not see anything chemical on the middle of the upper 3 coins.  

Edited July 19, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

So, if it was dipped it would affect even the lettered area, so I assume you guys are saying that coin appears to be physically polished maybe with like a dremel and a buffing wheel?

[EagleRJO]

Man, does eBay have any of the less common Morgans like a 1903-S that I just worked down to in decent condition that are not dipped or cleaned?  Here is another one that at first glance looked to me like an XF (maybe VF+) but looking closer there are darker areas within and around the letters and features indicating it may have been cleaned ... smh.

In any event, cleaning aside, would this one be an XF, or maybe a VF+ even if its TPG Details - Cleaned?

[RWB]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:45 AM, EagleRJO said:

Where/what is the damage (other than maybe possible polishing/dipping) that would keep #2 form being graded?

Polishing - surface alteration and abuse - IS the damage.

[RWB]

ebay and other similar on-line venues, are home to a very large proportion of damaged, cleaned, abused, altered and unendurable coins.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/20/2022 at 3:01 PM, RWB said:

ebay and other similar on-line venues, are home to a very large proportion of damaged, cleaned, abused, altered and unendurable coins.

I am starting to get that, as I can't seem to find any decent raw 1903-S coins.  Any suggestions on where to get raw less common date/mint Morgans where I might be able to bid on them or make offers (other than some of the larger dealers who don't seem accept offers on coins?

Also, what about a grade for that last 1903-S Morgan? XF Details - Cleaned?

[RWB]

Dates such as 1903-S have been on collector lists for decades. Most of the nicer pieces were scooped up long ago, then sent for grading. Better hunting for good raw coins is often found at small coin shows - the kind held in VFD social halls and Am Legion posts. Estate sales can also be good places to look, but auctioneers at these things often combine estates and add junk that didn't sell earlier. Shill bidding is common.

[VKurtB]

On 7/21/2022 at 8:29 AM, RWB said:

Shill bidding is common.

But not in Pennsylvania, where it is literally a crime. 

[World Colonial]

Maybe I missed it, but I understand the OP wants to buy raw coins.  For such common coins, I'd never do that.  There isn't a single Morgan dollar that is even close to hard to buy, unless it's a specific Sheldon grade (overwhelmingly top pop), VAM, or on occasion PL.

NGC has graded 337 XF-40 and 457 XF-45 1903-S with many more in PCGS holders.  If someone wants to buy one of these two grades, should be available in multiple, all the time.

If the buyer wants it raw, crack it out of the holder.

Sorry, you get what you pay for, most of the time.

Edited July 21, 2022 by World Colonial

[EagleRJO]

I hands-down prefer raw coins over ones in slab coffins, as I like to hold the coins I collect in my hands (yes, with cotton gloves if not holding it by the edges).  I am collecting the Morgans and ASEs because I really like both the way they look and how they feel in my hand.  I also find it more interesting evaluating the coin myself, instead of just looking at a label.  Plus, raw coins are less expensive than TPG slabbed ones.  So, I intentionally decided to collect raw Morgans, except for a handful (no pun intended) of really rare/expensive ones where it could be very risky going with raw coins.

There are usually plenty of raw Morgans available to choose from, even the less common earlier/later dates, until I hit the 1903-S Morgan.  I just can't seem to find any decent ones that haven't been dipped or cleaned.  Maybe it's just the price point I hit of around $400 to $500 for an XF grade, and above that grade there is a big price jump.  So, people may be trying to cash in on buying lower grade ones and cleaning/dipping them to try and pass them off as an AU worth 4 times an XF.

It is starting to look like I will have to compromise and buy a 1903-S in a slab coffin, and then crack it out of the slab coffin if I want to actually hold it ...

Edited July 24, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

And what about the grade for the cleaned one I posted just above.  XF (Details - Cleaned)?

I was thinking XF or XF+ (see attached for XF-45), or maybe even AU at a stretch because the hair lines and ear on the obv as well as the eagle's breast on the rev are still well defined and clearly visible.  Did someone really ruin an otherwise nice condition coin like that?

Edited July 22, 2022 by EagleRJO