Famous Morgan dollar collections 1 1

[tomsch]

I've seen a few notable morgan dollar collections, like Binion, Redfield, GSA, New York Bank, Great Southern, etc... But could someone give a history of the "Alexandra Koslow" collection?  Can't find any info on this one.  Thanks in advance.

[zadok]

...redfield wasnt a collection, was a hoard mostly in mint or bank bags...no clue on the koslow, dont collect or try to keep abreast on morgans....

[Coinbuf]

I found a Linkd-in account for a Alexandra Koslow who identifies as a coin collector on that page.   Anyone can have their name put onto a slab label if they pay the fee, even if they are only famous in their own mind.   I would guess that is the case here, just a person that wanted her name on a (or however many) slabs, I would not place any importance on it.

[tomsch]

On 7/14/2022 at 2:57 PM, Coinbuf said:

I found a Linkd-in account for a Alexandra Koslow who identifies as a coin collector on that page.   Anyone can have their name put onto a slab label if they pay the fee, even if they are only famous in their own mind.   I would guess that is the case here, just a person that wanted her name on a (or however many) slabs, I would not place any importance on it.

Thanks for the response, I thought there had to be some pedigree/history for a name to be placed.  What if I pay the fee and ask for my slab to be labeled "Binion Hoard"?  Makes me wonder how many named coins are authentic to the historical provenance.

[Coinbuf]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:01 PM, tomsch said:

Thanks for the response, I thought there had to be some pedigree/history for a name to be placed.  What if I pay the fee and ask for my slab to be labeled "Binion Hoard"?  Makes me wonder how many named coins are authentic to the historical provenance.

While I do not know all the nuances of this process, I would guess that NGC would need some proof before they would process a request to use an already known provenance.

[DWLange]

Quote

While I do not know all the nuances of this process, I would guess that NGC would need some proof before they would process a request to use an already known provenance.

Absolutely---NGC will not add a notable provenance (pedigree) to any coin unless it can be so identified from an auction photo or original documentation. There are many vanity pedigrees to be found where the submitter simply wanted his own name, his daughter's name or his dog's name on the label. Oftentimes, these are submitted by subsequent owners for removal of the unfamiliar name.

Years ago, before it became so easy to trace the sales history of particular coins online, dealers frequently would request removal of famous names such as Norweb or Eliasberg, because they didn't want potential buyers knowing how much the dealers had paid by checking the published "prices realized" list. From time to time new owners discover that they have coins from these famous collections and request that the names be added. NGC will do this, as long as it can be certain of the provenance from the criteria stated above.

[World Colonial]

There aren't any. 

I wouldn't call any coin collection famous at all.  Eliasberg is the closest one and predominantly to US collectors, not elsewhere.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:45 AM, DWLange said:

Years ago, before it became so easy to trace the sales history of particular coins online, dealers frequently would request removal of famous names such as Norweb or Eliasberg, because they didn't want potential buyers knowing how much the dealers had paid by checking the published "prices realized" list. From time to time new owners discover that they have coins from these famous collections and request that the names be added. NGC will do this, as long as it can be certain of the provenance from the criteria stated above.

That's interesting on the removal thing, because since you probably are going to sell the coin for MORE $$$ than you paid, you would think checking the purchase price would be inconsequential.

Also, I would think pre-Internet that finding out sales prices was very difficult except for coins that got publicity and news articles written about them.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:18 AM, World Colonial said:

There aren't any.  I wouldn't call any coin collection famous at all.  Eliasberg is the closest one and predominantly to US collectors, not elsewhere.

Famous to us.  You ask the average American to name a famous coin collection, they have no idea.  They are more likely to know and name a famous telescope ! 

When I think of famous collections, these come to mind within 30 seconds:  Eliasberg.... Norweb.....Bass....the 1930's and 1940's oldtimers who dealt with the great dealers Mehl, Kosoff, Kreisberg, etc.......Hansen (but I don't know exactly what he has besides some top Saints).....Half Dome (not sure who started this one but the name sticks with me because of the California hiking mountain)....Simpson......and now I think of our friend, Elite Collection (only 1933 DE, #3 at worst 1907 UHR).

Edited July 15, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:45 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Famous to us.  You ask the average American to name a famous coin collection, they have no idea.  They are more likely to know and name a famous telescope ! 

When I think of famous collections, these come to mind within 30 seconds:  Eliasberg.... Norweb.....Bass....the 1930's and 1940's oldtimers who dealt with the great dealers Mehl, Kosoff, Kreisberg, etc.......Hansen (but I don't know exactly what he has besides some top Saints).....Half Dome (not sure who started this one but the name sticks with me because of the California hiking mountain)....Simpson......and now I think of our friend, Elite Collection (only 1933 DE, #3 at worst 1907 UHR).

Yes, I know the names in your list above, except for Kreisberg who I have no clue about. This still doesn't mean that most US collectors (much less from anywhere else) have ever heard of most of these people.  I don't think they have.

It also depends upon someone's definition of "collector".  Using a narrow definition inferred on coin forums where the collector base is rather small, I suppose some of these people are "famous" but like you said, predominantly among "old timers".  

It's simply not relevant to most US collectors, so they almost certainly don't care to know.

In any event, this doesn't extend to collectors of a single series (Morgans or otherwise), as all of those on your list are or were US generalists.  Having the "finest known" or top registry set of some series isn't "fame".

What I am writing is independent of buying coins previously in a "name" collection, but that's not what the OP asked.

[zadok]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:39 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's interesting on the removal thing, because since you probably are going to sell the coin for MORE $$$ than you paid, you would think checking the purchase price would be inconsequential.

Also, I would think pre-Internet that finding out sales prices was very difficult except for coins that got publicity and news articles written about them.

...auction houses routinely provided the subscribers of their catalogs with a prices realized list after the auction, some of the auction houses offered this service for a small fee at the time of subscription...if u spent enuf money u got subsequent catalogs n prices realized gratis....

[zadok]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:45 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Famous to us.  You ask the average American to name a famous coin collection, they have no idea.  They are more likely to know and name a famous telescope ! 

When I think of famous collections, these come to mind within 30 seconds:  Eliasberg.... Norweb.....Bass....the 1930's and 1940's oldtimers who dealt with the great dealers Mehl, Kosoff, Kreisberg, etc.......Hansen (but I don't know exactly what he has besides some top Saints).....Half Dome (not sure who started this one but the name sticks with me because of the California hiking mountain)....Simpson......and now I think of our friend, Elite Collection (only 1933 DE, #3 at worst 1907 UHR).

...Hansen collects everything US, his goal is to exceed Eliasberg..."famous to us", american collectors r more absorbed in famous, best, most, highest everything , this carrys over into numismatics its similar to US coin collectors fascinations with varieties...many if not most foreign collectors care little for pedigree, famous, varieties... their interests r more akin to type sets n many could care less for date sets....

[zadok]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:56 AM, World Colonial said:

Yes, I know the names in your list above, except for Kreisberg who I have no clue about. This still doesn't mean that most US collectors (much less from anywhere else) have ever heard of most of these people.  I don't think they have.

It also depends upon someone's definition of "collector".  Using a narrow definition inferred on coin forums where the collector base is rather small, I suppose some of these people are "famous" but like you said, predominantly among "old timers".  

It's simply not relevant to most US collectors, so they almost certainly don't care to know.

In any event, this doesn't extend to collectors of a single series (Morgans or otherwise), as all of those on your list are or were US generalists.  Having the "finest known" or top registry set of some series isn't "fame".

What I am writing is independent of buying coins previously in a "name" collection, but that's not what the OP asked.

...Abner was well known n held his own with the other major US dealers...there is a big diff between a "famous" collector n a "famous" collection...most US collectors could care less if anyone knows them but they want their collection to be "known" when dispersed...there r literally dozens of "famous" collections in US numismatics, n many r "series or denominations specific", half cents, large cents, bust halves, liberty seated come to mind...there r a few collections where the collector tried to assemble complete sets of US coins n yes coins with those pedigrees do bring substantial premiums n r eagerly sought after...one collection comes to mind that isnt famous, the Brand collection assembled by Virgil Brand, it encompassed everything, US n foreign, literally hundreds of thousands of coins n took years to disperse...he often bought entire collections to add to his, as did Eliasberg...agree top registry sets do not equate to "fame" they r just what the name infers...registry sets, but many of these sets will end up in significant collections, whether these will be "famous" or not is yet to be determined...re morgan dollar "famous" collections, im not aware of any....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:56 AM, World Colonial said:

Yes, I know the names in your list above, except for Kreisberg who I have no clue about. This still doesn't mean that most US collectors (much less from anywhere else) have ever heard of most of these people.  I don't think they have.

Kreisberg was Kosoff's partner (for a while) and they both did the Adolf Menjou sale in 1950.  

I agree with you that most U.S. collectors don't know who these people are.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:35 PM, zadok said:

...auction houses routinely provided the subscribers of their catalogs with a prices realized list after the auction, some of the auction houses offered this service for a small fee at the time of subscription...if u spent enuf money u got subsequent catalogs n prices realized gratis....

Yes, I see those with all the ones I bought, from 1950 through 1998.  Those are great to know.  The Mejou 1950 catalog also has the pre-auction estimate and the final realized price.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:10 PM, zadok said:

...one collection comes to mind that isnt famous, the Brand collection assembled by Virgil Brand, it encompassed everything, US n foreign, literally hundreds of thousands of coins n took years to disperse...he often bought entire collections to add to his, as did Eliasberg...agree top registry sets do not equate to "fame" they r just what the name infers...

I think it took DECADES to disperse, Zad !

Even the Eliasberg sale took I think about 15 years to liquidate.  I realize it might take a few years, but 15 ?  And it's not like they sold off all the top stuff and it took a while to sell the "dregs" of the collection that nobody wanted.  I believe both sales included top Morgans, Saints, Liberty's, etc.

[World Colonial]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think it took DECADES to disperse, Zad !

Even the Eliasberg sale took I think about 15 years to liquidate.  I realize it might take a few years, but 15 ?  And it's not like they sold off all the top stuff and it took a while to sell the "dregs" of the collection that nobody wanted.  I believe both sales included top Morgans, Saints, Liberty's, etc.

To my knowledge, the bulk of the Eliasberg Collection was sold in 1982 by Bowers & Merena which included rarities like the 1822 half eagle.  Last sale I know was by Stacks of his world gold in 2005, 3600 lots.  I don't know if any sold prior to 1982 or after 2005.

[DWLange]

The Eliasberg Collection was inherited by his two sons. Louis, Jr. got the USA gold coins, and Richard got the remaining USA coins and the world pieces. Evidently, Pop thought that was an approximately equal division of value. Louis was impulsive and opted to sell the USA gold almost immediately in the very bad market of 1982; thus, he left a lot of money on the table. Richard held back, selling his USA pieces in the quiet but better market of 1996-97, then selling the world pieces in the very active market of 2005.

Regarding Abner Kreisberg, he was never a collector but always a dealer. He and Abe Kosoff had a parting of the ways following the King Farouk sale in 1954 when Abner suspected (or was certain) that Abe had bought some coins for their joint business and some for his own account on the side.

[World Colonial]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:48 PM, zadok said:

.american collectors r more absorbed in famous, best, most, highest everything , this carrys over into numismatics its similar to US coin collectors fascinations with varieties...many if not most foreign collectors care little for pedigree, famous, varieties... their interests r more akin to type sets n many could care less for date sets....

I infer two reasons for what you described, related to actual collecting:

For the collector of European and some Asian, there is 1000+ years to collect versus somewhat over 200 for US Mint.  The coins are also much cheaper generally, so it's more feasible to buy a larger variety and not being obsessed with TPG differentials, find the older coinage a lot more interesting.

Second, a noticeable proportion of coinage outside the US is actually hard to buy, as opposed to the US which mostly isn't, even in high quality.  Western Europe and Anglo countries from the same time period are frequently approximately equal or even more common but not others.

So, since it's often very difficult or not possible to complete a series by date at all even in typical collector grades, there is no point in even attempting more recent US collecting practices: "finest known", varieties, errors, color/toning, matched sets, whatever.  That's predominantly done with (very) common US series which can literally be completed in "high quality" in as little as one day, which includes every one starting with Barbers except for the Indian Head Eagle and Saints.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:50 PM, DWLange said:

The Eliasberg Collection was inherited by his two sons. Louis, Jr. got the USA gold coins, and Richard got the remaining USA coins and the world pieces. Evidently, Pop thought that was an approximately equal division of value. Louis was impulsive and opted to sell the USA gold almost immediately in the very bad market of 1982; thus, he left a lot of money on the table. Richard held back, selling his USA pieces in the quiet but better market of 1996-97, then selling the world pieces in the very active market of 2005.

Wow, I didn't know that.  So one son sold right away and the other took his time.  That explains the time gap.  Thanks, Dave.  

On 7/15/2022 at 3:50 PM, DWLange said:

Regarding Abner Kreisberg, he was never a collector but always a dealer. He and Abe Kosoff had a parting of the ways following the King Farouk sale in 1954 when Abner suspected (or was certain) that Abe had bought some coins for their joint business and some for his own account on the side.

Wow....intrigue !!   Yes, if it wasn't clear above I knew Mehl, K&K, Switt....they were all DEALERS and not collectors.

Edited July 15, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Kreisberg was Kosoff's partner (for a while) and they both did the Adolf Menjou sale in 1950.  

I agree with you that most U.S. collectors don't know who these people are.

...most US citizens couldnt name 10 presidents...ask Jay Leno....

[zadok]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:55 PM, World Colonial said:

I infer two reasons for what you described, related to actual collecting:

For the collector of European and some Asian, there is 1000+ years to collect versus somewhat over 200 for US Mint.  The coins are also much cheaper generally, so it's more feasible to buy a larger variety and not being obsessed with TPG differentials, find the older coinage a lot more interesting.

Second, a noticeable proportion of coinage outside the US is actually hard to buy, as opposed to the US which mostly isn't, even in high quality.  Western Europe and Anglo countries from the same time period are frequently approximately equal or even more common but not others.

So, since it's often very difficult or not possible to complete a series by date at all even in typical collector grades, there is no point in even attempting more recent US collecting practices: "finest known", varieties, errors, color/toning, matched sets, whatever.  That's predominantly done with (very) common US series which can literally be completed in "high quality" in as little as one day, which includes every one starting with Barbers except for the Indian Head Eagle and Saints.

...i dont disagree with any of ur comments here...i also personally believe that there is just a diff collector mentality between US collecting n european collecting...diff collecting goals, in france for instance i doubt almost any collector even cares to complete a set of "roosters", low interest n easily obtained, the scarcity or rarity only becomes evident when self imposed parameters r included e.g. ms67...otherwise its much like collecting US modern issues...most of the US sets r readily obtainable until artificial parameters r added...there r legitimate rarieties, in both US n many foreign series but few n far between...most continental collectors ive know collect diff than i do...the british r somewhere in between n as far as asian collectors ive only ever known one, QDB, n i know squat bout chinese coins...

Edited July 15, 2022 by zadok
spelling

[zadok]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow, I didn't know that.  So one son sold right away and the other took his time.  That explains the time gap.  Thanks, Dave.  

Wow....intrigue !!   Yes, if it wasn't clear above I knew Mehl, K&K, Switt....they were all DEALERS and not collectors.

...switt always came across more as a broker as opposed to a dealer to me...k & k as well as the kagin brothers (since we r on the k's) pure dealers...mehl i did not know but def was a businessman...

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:43 PM, zadok said:

.... i doubt almost any collector even cares to complete a set of "roosters", low interest n easily obtained, the scarcity or rarity only becomes evident when self imposed parameters r included e.g. ms67...

I heard that !!!

Unfortunately, it's true.  There is nothing I can say or do about it. That may change over time, but I won't be around to see it.  (Interesting development: both the euro and USD, as you may have heard, have achieved parity for the first time in 20 years.) Carry on, gentlemen...  🐓 

[zadok]

On 7/16/2022 at 7:58 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I heard that !!!

Unfortunately, it's true.  There is nothing I can say or do about it. That may change over time, but I won't be around to see it.  (Interesting development: both the euro and USD, as you may have heard, have achieved parity for the first time in 20 years.) Carry on, gentlemen...  🐓 

...roosters were just an example to see if u were paying attention...same is true with netherlands 10G's n other european equivalent gold issues, most just placeholders to mint the gold to back up currency n basically not circulated only rarity is grade related, much like the US modern series, common except super grades...several of the european currencies approaching parity, i bought those that i mite travel to in the next year or two, vkurt should buy some british pounds while down n save himself few hundred dollars on his next trip...gentleman, officer n scholar not sure these r approaching parity yet....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/16/2022 at 7:58 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I heard that !!!  Unfortunately, it's true.  There is nothing I can say or do about it. That may change over time, but I won't be around to see it.  (Interesting development: both the euro and USD, as you may have heard, have achieved parity for the first time in 20 years.) Carry on, gentlemen...  🐓 

All that matters is that YOU like them, QA. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:13 AM, zadok said:

...roosters were just an example to see if u were paying attention...same is true with netherlands 10G's n other european equivalent gold issues, most just placeholders to mint the gold to back up currency n basically not circulated only rarity is grade related, much like the US modern series, common except super grades...several of the european currencies approaching parity, i bought those that i mite travel to in the next year or two, vkurt should buy some british pounds while down n save himself few hundred dollars on his next trip...gentleman, officer n scholar not sure these r approaching parity yet....

I am sure Rooster buyers here in America are few and far behind (not sure I've ever see one at a LCS or coin show)....but they MAY be much more common over in Europe or more specifically, France.

Haven't been to any French coin shops or European coin shows lately. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

All that matters is that YOU like them, QA. 

[Sad to say, the only thing that really matters to ME, is the mood of Moderation, whether Chopper One is in the air and Ole hoop's disposition, all of which can change without notice.]  

[RWB]

Can anyone mention any "famous Morgan dollar collections?" (Real collection, not hoards of bags.) I recall only a couple....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/16/2022 at 7:25 PM, RWB said:

Can anyone mention any "famous Morgan dollar collections?" (Real collection, not hoards of bags.) I recall only a couple....

Nope...and I can't name any Penny, Nickel, Dime, Quarter, or other collections, too. 

Either a collection is all-encompassing or it focuses on Saints or 1804 and earlier dollars or something like that....or the collector remains anonymous.

Edited July 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969