The fate of many seated Liberty silver dollars 1 1

[RWB]

Ths casual letter to a Canadian banker indicates what happened to many seated Liberty dollars.

August 9, 1869

 W. Weir, Esq.

Banker

Montreal, Canada

 Sir,

In reply to you letter of the 5^th inst., I can only say that it is certain we are coining but little silver, and do not know what becomes of it after it leaves the Mint. The whole dollars, however, are chiefly melted up by silversmiths.

            Any person sending silver to the Mint, can have it coined, or it can be made into fine bars, stamped; which is now frequently done.

            The silver coins of the United States have no gold value fixed by law; unless it may be said that the gold dollars and silver dollars (whole) are equal, as having equally legal tenders. In the market the silver dollars is of greater value. The pieces of half dollars and less are only a legal tender to the amount of five dollars.

            The enclosed circulars may interest you somewhat.

Respectfully yours,

James Pollock, Director

Edited July 5, 2022 by RWB

[World Colonial]

Was this related to the discovery of the Comstock Lode and indirectly, the California Gold Rush?

I only know when the silver content in US coinage was adjusted (by the arrows on the design) but don't how the relative supply of these discoveries impacted availability of silver coinage or melting.

I don't consider many Seated dollars scarce (except in grade) but most aren't (very) common either.

[RWB]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:25 AM, World Colonial said:

Was this related to the discovery of the Comstock Lode and indirectly, the California Gold Rush?

I only know when the silver content in US coinage was adjusted (by the arrows on the design) but don't how the relative supply of these discoveries impacted availability of silver coinage or melting.

I don't consider many Seated dollars scarce (except in grade) but most aren't (very) common either.

1. No. The series of silver discoveries in Nevada, collectively called the "Comstock Lode" began in 1859 and had largely played out by 1874. It had limited effects on US coinage, but was an important contributor to fluctuations in silver-gold ratios (along with German unification and melting of older silver issues)

2. There were two weight changes for US subsidiary silver: 1853 when the coin weights were reduced (except the dollar) which also reduced the legal tender value to $5 from unlimited, and 1873 when the same coins were slightly increased in weight so that they were exactly proportional to French silver coins.

3. Seated dollars were valued at $1.08 when the letter was written. Most seemed to have been shipped to Asia for trade purposes and used by domestic silversmiths and others as a cheap source of metal of known purity. Those that entered commerce often got substantial use.

[Nouzillet]

Roger your post is interesting.....In 1863, a Detroit newspaper wrote about the Glut of Silver in Canada...American silver....Silver abounds everywhere,,,I know that when the Fraser River gold rush broke out in British Columbia in 1858, Seated haves were reportedly carried from SF to this site in numbers....In 1859 a San Francisco newspaper editor complained that the new silver dollars (1859-S) were being melted by local silversmiths and turned into silver ware....I believe this tidbit appeared in a January  2017 Numismatist article on the coin.

[DWLange]

Many years ago I wrote on the subject of USA silver circulating in Canada and that nation's attempts to drive it out.

Disclaimer: My hair is no longer thick and brown... https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/585/

[CaptHenway]

So if one of my ancestors rowed across the river from Detroit to Windsor in 1863 and went to Ye Olde Tim Horton's to buy a box of scones that cost 25 Cents and he presented a U.S. quarter in payment, would the transaction be even or would he owe a little more or a little less?

[RWB]

If he rowed that far for a box of stale scones, he didn't deserve any change.

And what about the tea?

This cli p from Sept 1, 1870 comparing a new Canadian quarter and a US quarter should answer your question. (The US coin was worth more.)

Edited July 5, 2022 by RWB

[RWB]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:27 PM, DWLange said:

Many years ago I wrote on the subject of USA silver circulating in Canada and that nation's attempts to drive it out.

Disclaimer: My hair is no longer thick and brown... https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/585/

Nice article Mr. Lange!

I'm currently working through some informal correspondence between a Canadian banker and Mint Dir Pollock in 1870. Not nearly ready with results yet, but it seems to center of practical measures.

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:25 AM, World Colonial said:

Was this related to the discovery of the Comstock Lode and indirectly, the California Gold Rush?

I only know when the silver content in US coinage was adjusted (by the arrows on the design) but don't how the relative supply of these discoveries impacted availability of silver coinage or melting.

I don't consider many Seated dollars scarce (except in grade) but most aren't (very) common either.

...the replies u have received to ur inquiry r only partially correct/complete...first of all regarding pollock's letter, it was written as a reply to an inquiry that he had received, it was written in 1869, well into the issuances of seated dollars...his reply only addresses the circumstances at that time n place n not the entire years of production, for practical purposes 1840-1873, what was going on in 1869 wasnt what was going on in 1849 or 1839...his reply is not based on any empirical data, more or less his off the cuff speculation on what was happening to the limited production of the "whole dollars" after issue, this excerpt is prob part of an ongoing conversation n not clear as yet the full scope of observations from either party...the replies u received also contain speculation n conjecture as to the utilation of these dollars after leaving the mint, no one can with any degree of accuracy definitively assess what happened, they can only formulate what the  circumstances were at that time n speculate based on the information available, possibly news article from the economic/commercial sectors...true since the silver content was slightly more than the face value n its purity known its almost certain that some/many were melted for uses other than currency of exchange, its also true that some/many were used in exchanges of trade/debt in asia, the trade dollar was almost certainly the work horse in this regard but both the trade n seated made their way to the orient...it is worth noting that trade dollars with chop marks r significantly more prevalent than seated dollars with chop marks, perhaps there was a reason for the seated to all be melted??...u draw ur own conclusions there...in re to the substantially used seated dollars, the evidence doesnt support this...while there were periods where minor silver coinage was scarce in certain areas of the country this didnt transfer to the "whole dollar" as very few actually circulated...the total population of certified seated dollars in grades below vf is miniscule, whereas the population of au specimens is relatively significant...should u or others desire to attemp to assemble a set of seated dollars in lets say g4-f12, i doubt it could ever be accomplished, a set in au-unc doable if ur pockets r deep enuf...just remember the total population of all seated dollars certified  by the tpgs for all years all mints in all grades is approx 20,000 coins...there r only a handful that rise to the level of being rare, most r scarce in presentable grades with decent eye appeal, a few actually common, mostly due those bags discovered n disbursed by the US mint a few decades ago, overall a very challenging n rewarding series...under appreciated n still under valued....

Edited July 5, 2022 by zadok
spelling

[RWB]

Trade dollar is irrelevant...did not exist in 1869. Pollock was writing from his memories of being director and was not supplying an evidence-based answer. There is a person engaged in empirical research on use of seated dollar in Asian trade, and the documentation thus far shows exports of US dollar coins and halves to China and Japan.

[Henri Charriere]

One TPGS (maybe this one, maybe not) urged collectors to consider starting a "low-ball" set, adding, "it's not as easy as you think." I ruminated over that and reached the inescapable conclusion that it wouldn't be cost-effective. Simple as that.

[DWLange]

In my opinion it's silly for someone to pay more for a certified Poor-1 coin than it would cost for a nice VF-20. That's a neurotic obsession with plastic and numbers at the expense of real numismatics.

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:29 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

One TPGS (maybe this one, maybe not) urged collectors to consider starting a "low-ball" set, adding, "it's not as easy as you think." I ruminated over that and reached the inescapable conclusion that it wouldn't be cost-effective. Simple as that.

...the tpgs often encourage collectors to collect many divergent things, its called business expansion...most hobbies r not cost effective....

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:45 PM, DWLange said:

In my opinion it's silly for someone to pay more for a certified Poor-1 coin than it would cost for a nice VF-20. That's a neurotic obsession with plastic and numbers at the expense of real numismatics.

...and it is an astute opinion at that Dave...well grounded n accurately assessed...yet here i sit with an adjunct po-1 collection, at least i didnt pay vf-20 prices only fr-2 prices...the only justification i can offer is...Dave, u just havent gotten bored enuf yet...in all seriousness, "real numismatics" is n should be to strive to acquire n exhibit the very best coins u can afford to obtain...to both of us, its much more than collecting, its closer to historical heritage n preservation, custodianship if u will....

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:35 PM, RWB said:

Trade dollar is irrelevant...did not exist in 1869. Pollock was writing from his memories of being director and was not supplying an evidence-based answer. There is a person engaged in empirical research on use of seated dollar in Asian trade, and the documentation thus far shows exports of US dollar coins and halves to China and Japan.

...the trade dollar is relevant to the asian trade discussion just not in 1869, yes im sure Joshua would concur that a defined portion of seated dollar issues ended up destined to the asian silver market, a specific example the 1859-S production...yet one must remember that the entire production of all seated dollars was less than 6.5 million ounces of silver, a pittance compared to the amount of asian silver garnered from the Mexican 8R...Richard n Brian could prob amplify this discussion, but im sure they have more important things to research than Pollock's casual correspondence n im not aware they even participate in this forum...

Edited July 6, 2022 by zadok
grammar correction

[VKurtB]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:29 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

One TPGS (maybe this one, maybe not) urged collectors to consider starting a "low-ball" set, adding, "it's not as easy as you think." I ruminated over that and reached the inescapable conclusion that it wouldn't be cost-effective. Simple as that.

A good many things that are difficult remain not worth doing, and lowball collecting is one. The discussion of them frequently starts with, “Why on earth would anyone want to…”

Edited July 6, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:47 PM, VKurtB said:

A good many things that are difficult remain not worth doing, and lowball collecting is one. The discussion of them frequently starts with, “Why on earth would anyone want to…”

...almost like buying 3d cufflinks...

[VKurtB]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:57 PM, zadok said:

...almost like buying 3d cufflinks...

I own “3d” cufflinks. They were bought from Charles Tyrwhitt in Chicago and they are made from heavily silver plated British brass 3 pence pieces, hence 3d. 

[Henri Charriere]

Two observations...

1.  Clearly, the overture re low-balls I received was not from our hosts;

2.  I am taking judicial notice of the fact that z, when in an excitable state, resorts to Capitalization, a feat rarely if ever encountered on these rapidly unspooling threads.  😉 

Good nite all!

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:01 PM, VKurtB said:

I own “3d” cufflinks. They were bought from Charles Tyrwhitt in Chicago and they are made from heavily silver plated British brass 3 pence pieces, hence 3d. 

...yes im aware...

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:10 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Two observations...

1.  Clearly, the overture re low-balls I received was not from our hosts;

2.  I am taking judicial notice of the fact that z, when in an excitable state, resorts to Capitalization, a feat rarely if ever encountered on these rapidly unspooling threads.  😉 

Good nite all!

...Z is the state of subtleness, my capitals r reserved for words of respect....

[RWB]

On 7/4/2022 at 10:00 PM, RWB said:

The whole dollars, however, are chiefly melted up by silversmiths.

This use of dollars extended well into the Morgan dollar period and was occasionally mentioned in silversmith's ads. Mint correspondence also refers to requests to buy dollars from the Mint or banks by jewelers, etc.

In a period when silver and gold were circulating money, they were also inexpensive sources of raw metal for any business or profession using them.

[numisport]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:27 PM, DWLange said:

Many years ago I wrote on the subject of USA silver circulating in Canada and that nation's attempts to drive it out.

Disclaimer: My hair is no longer thick and brown... https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/585/

That's a great article Mr. Lange, and by the way my hair never was thick and brown. 

[CaptHenway]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:27 AM, RWB said:

This use of dollars extended well into the Morgan dollar period and was occasionally mentioned in silversmith's ads. Mint correspondence also refers to requests to buy dollars from the Mint or banks by jewelers, etc.

In a period when silver and gold were circulating money, they were also inexpensive sources of raw metal for any business or profession using them.

If a silversmith did need a small quantity of silver and was OK with using a ,900 fine U.S. coin or two, by using a silver dollar he got approximately 7% more silver than if he used two half dollar. Hence the preference for dollars.

This assumes of course that either option was easily available at face value in exchange for paper dollars, which was not always the case. I'm not sure that any silver coins were available at face value in exchange for paper in 1869.

[CaptHenway]

And I am curious if all those people melting down .900 fine coin silver bothered to throw a little pure silver into the melt to bring it up to .925 Sterling levels, or if they just figured that the customers would not be able to tell the difference.

[DWLange]

Quote

I'm not sure that any silver coins were available at face value in exchange for paper in 1869.

I believe we can be quite certain they were not.

[CaptHenway]

On 7/5/2022 at 1:34 PM, RWB said:

If he rowed that far for a box of stale scones, he didn't deserve any change.

And what about the tea?

This cli p from Sept 1, 1870 comparing a new Canadian quarter and a US quarter should answer your question. (The US coin was worth more.)

Yes, but what would the person at the cash box do? I grew up in Detroit at a time that the U.S. Dollar and the Canadian Dollar were very close to par, and you could spend either locally at par, including the coinage. I even had the Whitman blue folders for Canadian coins up through 25 Cents. Then a new Canadian government came into power somewhere in the 1960's and instituted some economic policies that drove the Canadian Dollar below 95 cents US. The corner candy store put up a sign that a Canadian quarter was now worth 23 cents, a Canadian dime 9 cents, and a Canadian nickel 4 cents. Cents were still even because they could not be discounted.

[RWB]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:58 PM, CaptHenway said:

And I am curious if all those people melting down .900 fine coin silver bothered to throw a little pure silver into the melt to bring it up to .925 Sterling levels, or if they just figured that the customers would not be able to tell the difference.

No, they usually didn't. The sterling standard was looked down on as a leftover affectation from when purity was measured in karats not thousandths. Coin silver was the same price per ounce regardless of source - there was a mark-up on silver dollars which evened the price. Using the US coin standard was convenient, just as using the British silver coins standard was convenient for silversmiths in England.

[RWB]

On 7/6/2022 at 2:08 PM, CaptHenway said:

Yes, but what would the person at the cash box do?

A typical cash-box reaction would be to call them par if you were in Canada and received the higher silver content US quarter; opposite if the transactions took place in Detroit instead of Windsor.

[ThommyCoiny]

Ah, guys, let a newbie who works as a history teacher say smth. I remember those days in Detroit when the U.S. and Canadian dollars were nearly equal in value. Spending either currency locally at par, including the coinage, was convenient. I even had the Whitman blue folders for Canadian coins up through 25 cents, just like you did. Then the new Government... However, I checked https://edubirdie.com/write-my-paper when I was doing research help for my sister, who is a student, and I understood that it's interesting to note that cents could not be discounted, so their value remained the same. I asked the experts to write my paper and help with some points, and the paper with detailed research fully caught my enthusiasm. As for what the person at the cash box would do, they would have to follow the store's policy and adjust the value of Canadian coins accordingly when making changes for customers. Unfortunately, the value of the Canadian dollar dropped so significantly, but economic fluctuations are a natural part of any currency system, so...

Edited March 20, 2023 by ThommyCoiny