J P M Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 You are a welder. It looks like it got tagged with a welding rod a long time ago. Someone messing around . Just my opinion Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhoopster Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 4:17 AM, Shawn11 said: man i totally agree...and heat is capable of many things with metals but also very reliable in such that it is contolled properly so my next question improperly annealled is not a possibility....sorry man before i say this i just wanna thank you for answering without a closed mind or rhe self centered attitude of im a vetertan coin collector...the how dare you disagree with me... it is what I/we say it is...type response bht any one with an understanding of metals and heat and/or with anealling(I beleive you do) would know the answer is %100 yes improperly annealled is a possibility (heat related) which in my oppion is more likely then it just being tossed into a fire and then back into circulation now into my pocket. the evedince doesnt support that theory! the damage and surface is consistant with improperly annealled coins what i cant seem to figure out is the 2 areas that are deformed, if bubbling did occur from heat being applied to a localized area wouldnt there be evedince of that directly beneath on the other side of the coin? It couldn't be an annealing issue for the following reasons * Annealing occurs after the blanks are punched, but BEFORE the coins are struck. * Annealing is done at temps BELOW the melting point. Once you hit the MP of the metal, you are going to have a puddle in your furnace, not a mushy planchet * Striking coins is done under tons of force. This force causes metal to move and fill the recessed areas of the die. The strike flattens everything on the planchet, so it could NOT leave a mushy, uneven surface. Can't happen from an annealing issue. BTW: The strike is the last part of the minting process. Many times, veteran collectors are telling you FACTS about coins and the minting process (and sometimes a little metallurgy). Nobody is guessing, and if they do give incorrect info, it's called out by others. They don't always have time to write pages explaining the details, that's why they sometimes include links to help you learn on your own. When you ask a question on this forum, the consensus opinion is accurate and correct. What you may think is "how dare they disagree with me", is only the frustration of watching a new collector continuing to ask the equivalent of "are you sure 2+2 really equals 4?". Sometimes it's easy to forget people are new. Once again, taking the the time to learn and understand the minting process is time well spent. Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Sum up the thread: Shawn: What happed? Group: Heat Damage Shawn: I disagree Group: Heat Damage Shawn: Strike Through? Group: Heat Damage Shawn: If heat damage, why no discoloration? Group: Heat Damage doesn't have to discolor Shawn: What about the divot on both sides? Explain that! Group: Heat Damage Shawn: Improperly Annealed? Group: Heat Damage Shawn: How do you know? Someone tell me what happened. Group: Heat Damage. We know because it looks like heat damage. Shawn: I am a welder... I know heat damage. Group: This is heat damage. Can you see how this is frustrating? I am questioning if you are legit, or just trolling the forum. Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 3:32 AM, l.cutler said: Clad coins are made of three layers, when heated there can be separating and bubbling of the layers but not necessarily opposite each other. The first time I saw damage like this I tried to recreate it by heating, sometimes the coin has no bulging at all, other times it is on one side and sometimes both. Whether it is gas trapped between the layers, areas in the cladding that are not bonded as well or what I don't know. When the whole coin is heated the damage on each side is seldom directly opposite, it is just wherever these "weakened" areas are. Your coin looks like it has seen a lot of wear after the heat damage, the bubbles have mostly been flattened back out. On 6/23/2022 at 1:53 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: Sum up the thread: Shawn: What happed? Group: Heat Damage Shawn: I disagree Group: Heat Damage Shawn: Strike Through? Group: Heat Damage Shawn: If heat damage, why no discoloration? Group: Heat Damage doesn't have to discolor Shawn: What about the divot on both sides? Explain that! Group: Heat Damage Shawn: Improperly Annealed? Group: Heat Damage Shawn: How do you know? Someone tell me what happened. Group: Heat Damage. We know because it looks like heat damage. Shawn: I am a welder... I know heat damage. Group: This is heat damage. Can you see how this is frustrating? I am questioning if you are legit, or just trolling the forum. wow man, im speechless had no idea you spent your whole day on me and my newbie post now thats devotion unfortunately your recaps accuracy was graded at vg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhoopster Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 You try to help someone learn and this is the type of response. No sense in wasting my time trying help him. Just somebody to add to my Do Not Respond list Best of luck moving forward Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 11:41 AM, Oldhoopster said: It couldn't be an annealing issue for the following reasons * Annealing occurs after the blanks are punched, but BEFORE the coins are struck. * Annealing is done at temps BELOW the melting point. Once you hit the MP of the metal, you are going to have a puddle in your furnace, not a mushy planchet * Striking coins is done under tons of force. This force causes metal to move and fill the recessed areas of the die. The strike flattens everything on the planchet, so it could NOT leave a mushy, uneven surface. Can't happen from an annealing issue. BTW: The strike is the last part of the minting process. Many times, veteran collectors are telling you FACTS about coins and the minting process (and sometimes a little metallurgy). Nobody is guessing, and if they do give incorrect info, it's called out by others. They don't always have time to write pages explaining the details, that's why they sometimes include links to help you learn on your own. When you ask a question on this forum, the consensus opinion is accurate and correct. What you may think is "how dare they disagree with me", is only the frustration of watching a new collector continuing to ask the equivalent of "are you sure 2+2 really equals 4?". Sometimes it's easy to forget people are new. Once again, taking the the time to learn and understand the minting process is time well spent. man this is just just crazy that all this coukd come from me disagreeing with only the fire portion your heat/fire response which must have been correct since fire was only mentioned once after that (in that manner) and heat is now the group consensus other than me saying i saw characteristic's of strike through(not strike through) you guys went here saying this other that had nothing to do with my question, not me! but in the end a couple of gentkeman offered an actual informative response to my questions rather than its heat damaghe thats all you need to know well im not happy with just knowing what i can see my good freind so my apologies for asking for more information ps. i do believe the coin was improperly annealled prior to the welding rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Bill347 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Shawn..give it up! You spent that quarter in your first post, therefore worthless now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhoopster Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 6:38 PM, Shawn11 said: ps. i do believe the coin was improperly annealled prior to the welding rod In case any of the members are interested, here is a brief explanation why there would be no possible way to determine if a coin was improperly annealed if it was subject to subsequent heating like a welding rod. Improper annealing is due to the wrong atmosphere inside the furnace. Too little or too much oxygen can alter the surface chemistry of the metal. Under these reducing or oxidizing conditions, different oxides can form on the surface giving the darker or sometimes coppery color. These effects are primarily confined to the surface and don't penetrate much below Now when you reheat that coin, you're doing something similar to the annealing process, except in this case the atmosphere is what we breathe with standard oxygen levels. IF the coin was improperly annealed to begin with, the heat and different atmosphere would change the surface chemistry once again, so there would be no way to visually determine the original surface chemistry. Coins and chemistry, gotta love it The Neophyte Numismatist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 2:53 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: I am questioning if you are legit, or just trolling the forum. Maybe just maybe he is just getting off on the wrong foot? On 6/23/2022 at 6:38 PM, Shawn11 said: ps. i do believe the coin was improperly annealled prior to the welding rod No further questions, your Honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 7:24 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: Maybe just maybe he is just getting off on the wrong foot? No further questions, your Honor. you do realize people will have all ready read my entire post by the time they get to yours qouting pieces of mine that you feel you can use to accomplish..... (NO CLUE as to what you would even call that???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenHolcomb Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 @l.cutlerBoom! What a great answer. I absolutely 99.5% agree with @Oldhoopsterat his comment with the link. 99.5% being that every single Newbie to the Numismatic World must without exception watch or read at least 2 videos/articles about the entire Minting process from design to where the Coin enters that giant bin enroute to be rolled. The .05%... I too want to know what caused whatever damage has been done to my Coin. Too few Experts either here, on other sites, or on FB are willing, or maybe even able, to answer that question. With a Coin like this one here it's obvious the culprit is fire, likely from a vise and a torch. It shows all the signs of it just how cutler explained. @Shawn11would have known hoopster was correct had he already taken the time and initiative to have viewed a few videos and none of the spooning argument would have followed. I have a great PDF of the minting process from ancients to modern if anyone is interested. It's not been available for DL online in several years, idky that is but I had DLed it before it was removed. Only issue is that I can't share it via any method other than email unless someone would want 12 screenshots. Let me know. Y'all have a great weekend. And put on a happy face! 😁 l.cutler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
