Shawn11 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhoopster Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Possibly a fire Many times it's difficult to firmly establish the cause of PMD. However, if you study and learn the minting process, you'll easily recognize that it would be impossible for a coin like this to leave the mint in that condition. The Neophyte Numismatist and KarenHolcomb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 22, 2022 Author Share Posted June 22, 2022 disagree on the fire scenario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 22, 2022 Author Share Posted June 22, 2022 i see some chararistic's of strike through on the reverse and alot of details not imprinted such as date and tree top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 It's a badly damaged quarter, nothing more. The Neophyte Numismatist and JT2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 22, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 22, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 9:17 AM, Shawn11 said: disagree on the fire scenario My first thought was fire/extreme heat. Like @Oldhoopster said, it's hard to look at a coin and diagnose PMD with 100% accuracy. However, this is PMD nonetheless. I do not believe this to be a strikethrough. This coin is so damaged that it would not be worth submission regardless of the situation. If you really believe you have something special, submission would be the only way to validate your suspicions. Oldhoopster, KarenHolcomb and JT2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Greenstang Posted June 22, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 22, 2022 It doesn’t really matter the cause of the damage. The fact that this could not have happened during the striking of the coin is all that is needed to know. Damage is damage. Oldhoopster, KarenHolcomb and zadok 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 9:57 AM, Greenstang said: It doesn’t really matter the cause of the damage. The fact that this could not have happened during the striking of the coin is all that is needed to know. Damage is damage. ...distressed comes to mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 22, 2022 Author Share Posted June 22, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 5:18 PM, zadok said: ...distressed comes to mind... would extreme heat cause more discoloration? like a faked black beauty disstress maybe but how is some of the original image still there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 6:55 PM, Shawn11 said: would extreme heat cause more discoloration? like a faked black beauty disstress maybe but how is some of the original image still there ...disturbed now comes to mind... KarenHolcomb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 22, 2022 Author Share Posted June 22, 2022 whats that supposed to mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 You're "fishing" for something that is not present. It's junk. Too much damage to make any decisions about anything so spend it for a gum ball (if the machine will accept it) and move on to something numismaticly interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 22, 2022 Author Share Posted June 22, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 6:30 PM, RWB said: You're "fishing" for something that is not present. It's junk. Too much damage to make any decisions about anything so spend it for a gum ball (if the machine will accept it) and move on to something numismaticly interesting. no im not fishing im learning ive yet to claim that it was anything was meerly to trying figure out what happened to it? my original question! seems like everyone one here has tunnel vision when it comes to newbies eager to shut someone down but no help beyond that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 7:46 PM, Shawn11 said: no im not fishing im learning ive yet to claim that it was anything was meerly to trying figure out what happened to it? my original question! seems like everyone one here has tunnel vision when it comes to newbies eager to shut someone down but no help beyond that In this case - note true. I am a newbie, and I advocate for new collectors all the time (read my posts). I really try to be nice. When I ask a question, and I get an answer I accept it. I have asked about a DDO coin that was MD, they explained it... I looked it up. They were right, and I actually learned from that encounter. Your coin is damaged, and the collectors here have told you such. You wanted to argue, and more seasoned collectors piled on to drive home the point that you have a quarter that is damaged. You immediately disagreed with OldHoopster, and I think he was spot-on. However, in the end... it doesn't matter what happened. It's damage, not a strikethrough - its damage. You showing-up and arguing without a modicum of knowledge is a poor reflection on newbies. So, either submit it, or quit it. Oldhoopster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 7:18 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: In this case - note true. I am a newbie, and I advocate for new collectors all the time (read my posts). I really try to be nice. When I ask a question, and I get an answer I accept it. I have asked about a DDO coin that was MD, they explained it... I looked it up. They were right, and I actually learned from that encounter. Your coin is damaged, and the collectors here have told you such. You wanted to argue, and more seasoned collectors piled on to drive home the point that you have a quarter that is damaged. You immediately disagreed with OldHoopster, and I think he was spot-on. However, in the end... it doesn't matter what happened. It's damage, not a strikethrough - its damage. You showing-up and arguing without a modicum of knowledge is a poor reflection on newbies. So, either submit it, or quit it. oh good lord i never said anyone was wrong yes i did disagree with old hoopster never denied it was damaged nor did i claim it had came from the mint in this conditioni did ask what happened to it and got responses and thats great i appreciate that! as a welder im very familiar with what heat does to metal and disagreed was hoping for other possibilities as to what happened to it but of course your right amd there are no other possibilities heat/fire it is and im just arguing on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) On 6/22/2022 at 8:41 PM, Shawn11 said: ...as a welder im very familiar with what heat does to metal and disagreed was hoping for other possibilities as to what happened to it but of course your right amd there are no other possibilities heat/fire it is and im just arguing on here As a numismatist... it does not matter. I do not pick coins up on the street and wonder what happened to them. Frankly, my time is too valuable for such pursuits. They are damaged, not collectible and worth face, so I spend them. I wish you luck in finding-out exactly what happened to this coin. Edited June 23, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) On 6/22/2022 at 7:49 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: As a numismatist... it does not matter. I do not pick coins up on the street and wonder what happened to them. Frankly, my time is too valuable for such pursuits. They are damaged, not collectible and worth face and I spend them. I wish you luck in finding-out exactly what happened to this coin. and thank you for the valuable time you gave me,,, guess im wrong thinking that the more i knew about damage would result in knowing more about errors i will try to limit my questions to ones of more interesting subject matter but should i fail then just simply dont respond Edited June 23, 2022 by Shawn11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoghead515 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Looks like heat damage to me also. KarenHolcomb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhoopster Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 9:05 PM, Shawn11 said: and thank you for the valuable time you gave me,,, guess im wrong thinking that the more i knew about damage would result in knowing more about errors The best way to learn more about errors is learning the minting and die making processes. The biggest waste of time is trying to understand the cause of PMD. There are almost an infinite number of ways for a coin to become damaged. However, the minting process is well defined and understood. The right approach is "I can't explain how this could occur at the mint. It is likely to be damaged." The wrong approach is "I can't explain how this damage can occur. It must be an error." Your successes on error identification is predicated on your knowledge of the minting process. Searching for the causes of damage is a tremendous waste of time. Who knows if your coin was damaged by heat or something else. The bottom line is that it couldn't leave the mint like that so it can't be an error Some are 2 on the process. https://www.usmint.gov/learn/production-process/die-making The Neophyte Numismatist and Fenntucky Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 ok can someone pls explain to me how the areas (1 on obverse and 1 on reverse) that are not of original design happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) On 6/22/2022 at 9:05 PM, Shawn11 said: and thank you for the valuable time you gave me,,, guess im wrong thinking that the more i knew about damage would result in knowing more about errors You are correct here. Damage is everywhere. Don't train your eye to look for damage (grading is a different story). Learn how coins are made. Learn the resources like Wexlers, Mad Clashes, etc. Keep looking at the real deal. You will see how the dies make coins, and how errors occur. There are a lot of great resources... and if you don't know them... That is a great question to ask. Edited June 23, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) On 6/22/2022 at 9:22 PM, Shawn11 said: ok can someone pls explain to me how the areas (1 on obverse and 1 on reverse) that are not of original design happened You have three votes for heat damage so far - how many do you need? Please understand that everything you need is contained in the posts above. Edited June 23, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 8:31 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: You have three votes for heat damage so far - how many do you need? Please understand that everything you need is contained in the posts above. ok ill ask it like this why do you think this is heat damagewhat signs do you see that brought you to this determination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 the 2 areas in question do not match up from front to back they are both in seperate areas on the coin from front to back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lem E Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 The bubbling and separation of the clad layers leads me to believe heat damage as well. Hoghead515 and The Neophyte Numismatist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 8:52 PM, Lem E said: The bubbling and separation of the clad layers leads me to believe heat damage as well. thank you... that much heat with out discoloration is possible on coins? honest question not trying to dispute or argue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lem E Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 9:19 PM, Shawn11 said: thank you... that much heat with out discoloration is possible on coins? honest question not trying to dispute or argue I think it would depend on how the heat was applied and any surface discoloration that may have happened could have been worn off if/when the coin was put back in circulation. There are so many variables that it would be nearly impossible to say exactly what happened to this coin. My first instinct is some type of heat damage. How it happened, I can’t say for sure. The Neophyte Numismatist and Hoghead515 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 9:57 PM, Lem E said: I think it would depend on how the heat was applied and any surface discoloration that may have happened could have been worn off if/when the coin was put back in circulation. There are so many variables that it would be nearly impossible to say exactly what happened to this coin. My first instinct is some type of heat damage. How it happened, I can’t say for sure. man i totally agree...and heat is capable of many things with metals but also very reliable in such that it is contolled properly so my next question improperly annealled is not a possibility....sorry man before i say this i just wanna thank you for answering without a closed mind or rhe self centered attitude of im a vetertan coin collector...the how dare you disagree with me... it is what I/we say it is...type response bht any one with an understanding of metals and heat and/or with anealling(I beleive you do) would know the answer is %100 yes improperly annealled is a possibility (heat related) which in my oppion is more likely then it just being tossed into a fire and then back into circulation now into my pocket. the evedince doesnt support that theory! the damage and surface is consistant with improperly annealled coins what i cant seem to figure out is the 2 areas that are deformed, if bubbling did occur from heat being applied to a localized area wouldnt there be evedince of that directly beneath on the other side of the coin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.cutler Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) On 6/23/2022 at 4:17 AM, Shawn11 said: man i totally agree...and heat is capable of many things with metals but also very reliable in such that it is contolled properly so my next question improperly annealled is not a possibility....sorry man before i say this i just wanna thank you for answering without a closed mind or rhe self centered attitude of im a vetertan coin collector...the how dare you disagree with me... it is what I/we say it is...type response bht any one with an understanding of metals and heat and/or with anealling(I beleive you do) would know the answer is %100 yes improperly annealled is a possibility (heat related) which in my oppion is more likely then it just being tossed into a fire and then back into circulation now into my pocket. the evedince doesnt support that theory! the damage and surface is consistant with improperly annealled coins what i cant seem to figure out is the 2 areas that are deformed, if bubbling did occur from heat being applied to a localized area wouldnt there be evedince of that directly beneath on the other side of the coin? Clad coins are made of three layers, dis-similar metals expand differently when heated. When heated there can be separating and bubbling of the layers but not necessarily opposite each other. The first time I saw damage like this I tried to recreate it by heating, sometimes the coin has no bulging at all, other times it is on one side and sometimes both. Whether it is gas trapped between the layers, areas in the cladding that are not bonded as well or what I don't know. When the whole coin is heated the damage on each side is seldom directly opposite, it is just wherever these "weakened" areas are. Your coin looks like it has seen a lot of wear after the heat damage, the bubbles have mostly been flattened back out. Edited June 23, 2022 by l.cutler KarenHolcomb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn11 Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 6/23/2022 at 3:32 AM, l.cutler said: Clad coins are made of three layers, when heated there can be separating and bubbling of the layers but not necessarily opposite each other. The first time I saw damage like this I tried to recreate it by heating, sometimes the coin has no bulging at all, other times it is on one side and sometimes both. Whether it is gas trapped between the layers, areas in the cladding that are not bonded as well or what I don't know. When the whole coin is heated the damage on each side is seldom directly opposite, it is just wherever these "weakened" areas are. Your coin looks like it has seen a lot of wear after the heat damage, the bubbles have mostly been flattened back out. thank you sir,thats the type of response you would expect from a seasoned collector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
