Incorrect Heritage Morgan Spitting Eagle 1891 CC VAM
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The auction companies merely repeat whatever is on the label. Long ago, they actually examined and graded coins themselves.

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On 6/8/2022 at 4:33 PM, RWB said:

The auction companies merely repeat whatever is on the label. Long ago, they actually examined and graded coins themselves.

Here are two correct ones at Heritage right before this listing.

Screenshot_20220608-074812_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20220608-074637_Chrome.jpg

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I saw this thread, so I contacted one of our cataloguers and asked him to check to see whether the coin was correctly attributed. He viewed it and determined that it is. I have full confidence in his in-hand assessment.

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On 6/10/2022 at 10:21 AM, MarkFeld said:

I saw this thread, so I contacted one of our cataloguers and asked him to check to see whether the coin was correctly attributed. He viewed it and determined that it is. I have full confidence in his in-hand assessment.

Doesn't look like this one graded  MS61. 

Screenshot_20220608-074812_Chrome.jpg

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On 6/10/2022 at 12:08 PM, Errorists said:

Doesn't look like this one graded  MS61. 

Screenshot_20220608-074812_Chrome.jpg

As I said “I have full confidence in his in-hand assessment.”

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On 6/8/2022 at 5:33 PM, RWB said:

The auction companies merely repeat whatever is on the label. Long ago, they actually examined and graded coins themselves.

And often were WAY off, as I am sure you know.  Not uncommon to see a few Saints at some of the famous auctions of the 1980's and 1990's be 2-3 grades too low.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/10/2022 at 1:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

And often were WAY off, as I am sure you know.  Not uncommon to see Saints at some of the famous auctions of the 1980's and 1990's be 2-3 grades too low.

Sorry, but I think it’s bologna to state that it wasn’t uncommon to see Saints 2-3 grades too low in such auctions. 

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Recalling older (pre-TPG) auctions in which I participated, the "big boys" tended to be a little too optimistic especially as coin rarity increased. (Old Hallenbeck-Kagin and their offspring were consistently too high - I always bid one or two grades lower than the descriptions.) Smaller auction companies run by reputable dealers - Joe Lepczyk, Henry Christensen and several others - were either on-the-nose or somewhat under graded. (I could by really choice AU (barest rub) bust halves for $40 to $50 from him. Much the same for early quarters, dimes, etc. -- too much for me to have the cash to buy....)

Edited by RWB
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On 6/10/2022 at 2:38 PM, MarkFeld said:

Sorry, but I think it’s bologna to state that it wasn’t uncommon to see Saints 2-3 grades too low in such auctions. 

David Akers and others said they got what are today some of the Top Condition coins at those auctions.  They were listed in the auctions at MS-63 or 64 or 65....and often came up as 66 or 67.

Mark, by "uncommon"....I don't mean to imply that 1/3rd of the coins were undergraded by 2-3 grades.  But sharp eyes caught these coins as very undergraded and PCGS and NGC agreed with that conclusion.

Here's what comes from the HA archives from David Akers, talking about the 1908-S Norweb Saint:

"....The Saints in the Norweb sale were very conservatively and consistently undergraded. For example, the 1925-S and aforementioned 1926-D were graded only MS64 and MS63 respectively. I purchased both of them and subsequently sold them to Dr. Price. After they were sold with his collection in 1998, they were submitted for grading to PCGS and received grades of MS68 and MS66 respectively, the first and second finest of their issues graded."

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/10/2022 at 2:38 PM, MarkFeld said:

Sorry, but I think it’s bologna to state that it wasn’t uncommon to see Saints 2-3 grades too low in such auctions. 

Mark, I added "a few" to my earlier post to indicate that I didn't mean to imply that Saints across-the-board were undergraded by 2-3 grades.

Hope that clears it up.

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/10/2022 at 2:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The Eliasberg sale...the Price sale...etc.

David Akers and others said they got what are today some of the Top Condition coins at those auctions.  They were listed in the auctions at MS-63 or 64 or 65....and often came up as 66 or 67.

Mark, by "uncommon"....I don't mean to imply that 1/3rd of the coins were undergraded by 2-3 grades.  But sharp eyes caught these coins as very undergraded and PCGS and NGC agreed with that conclusion.

Here's what comes from the HA archives from David Akers, talking about the 1908-S Norweb Saint:

"....The Saints in the Norweb sale were very conservatively and consistently undergraded. For example, the 1925-S and aforementioned 1926-D were graded only MS64 and MS63 respectively. I purchased both of them and subsequently sold them to Dr. Price. After they were sold with his collection in 1998, they were submitted for grading to PCGS and received grades of MS68 and MS66 respectively, the first and second finest of their issues graded."

 

The comment to which you originally replied mentioned“The auction companies merely repeat whatever is on the label”. That would be a reference to coins that were already graded. If your (bologna😉) statement was referring to ungraded coins, you didn’t indicate it and that’s a different matter.

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On 6/10/2022 at 3:21 PM, MarkFeld said:

The comment to which you originally replied mentioned“The auction companies merely repeat whatever is on the label”. That would be a reference to coins that were already graded. If your (bologna😉) statement was referring to ungraded coins, you didn’t indicate it and that’s a different matter.

Yes, that's what I meant.  Didn't realize it got this confused/twisted.

I meant UNGRADED coins.  Of course !! (thumbsu

In the 1980's, it would be unreal to see graded coins since the TPGs didn't hit until 1986/87.  Even a decade or so later when the Price Auction hit...lots of ungraded coins.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/10/2022 at 2:23 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yes, that's what I meant.  Didn't realize it got this confused/twisted.

I meant UNGRADED coins.  Of course !! (thumbsu

In the 1980's, it would be unreal to see graded coins since the TPGs didn't hit until 1986/87.  Even a decade or so later when the Price Auction hit...lots of ungraded coins.

That’s better, and I withdraw my “bologna” comment😉, though you initially wrote “ auctions of the1980's and 1990's. 
 

 

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[Begging to differ, there isn't a lexicographer worthy of the title who would classify spit which hasn't been spat, as spitting. What we have here is a fanciful, protruding tongue--or a suggestion of drooling.]

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[Now, to the more pressing matter at hand...  In all fairness, TPGS are comprised of different graders at different times. Decades have come and gone and with the passage of time, grading skills and practices have evolved. Graders are human and while many are qualified to be a "Jack of all Coins," each has his own favorite line or area of expertise. Times change, people change and so do their opinions. Only a grader can state unequivocally that "that one was one of mine," graded at a particular TPGS, during a specific interval on a timeline. I do not feel comfortable painting an entire entity with a broad brush when only one, two or three people, ultimately, bore responsibility.  Understand, I have never committed the atrocity of compromising the integrity of an encapsulation due to a difference with the opinion rendered thereon. (I am also not going to surrender my 30-power loupe.)]  😉  

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On 6/11/2022 at 10:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Now, to the more pressing matter at hand...  In all fairness, TPGS are comprised of different graders at different times. Decades have come and gone and with the passage of time, grading skills and practices have evolved. Graders are human and while many are qualified to be a "Jack of all Coins," each has his own favorite line or area of expertise. Times change, people change and so do their opinions. Only a grader can state unequivocally that "that one was one of mine," graded at a particular TPGS, during a specific interval on a timeline. I do not feel comfortable painting an entire entity with a broad brush when only one, two or three people, ultimately, bore responsibility.  Understand, I have never committed the atrocity of compromising the integrity of an encapsulation due to a difference with the opinion rendered thereon. (I am also not going to surrender my 30-power loupe.)]  😉  

And I’d add that grading has only gotten better, not worse. There is no valid reason to be nostalgic for TPG the way it was done 30-35 years ago. 

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On 6/11/2022 at 11:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Now, to the more pressing matter at hand...  In all fairness, TPGS are comprised of different graders at different times. Decades have come and gone and with the passage of time, grading skills and practices have evolved. Graders are human and while many are qualified to be a "Jack of all Coins," each has his own favorite line or area of expertise. Times change, people change and so do their opinions. Only a grader can state unequivocally that "that one was one of mine," graded at a particular TPGS, during a specific interval on a timeline.

I think this is an EXTREMELY important point, one we sometimes overlook when talking about the TPGs.  

A grader in the 1990's could put a bit more value on luster, ignoring a few minor bagmarks or dings away from the fields.  OTOH, a grader in 2022 could value luster a bit less and focus on bagmarks and dings.

As all of us know, and Roger always posts here, grading is subjective.  Standards change over time (maybe unfortunately)...but so do graders (inevitably, as people change jobs or retire).

Most of the coins I collect or study are larger coins, Saints and Morgans and other gold/silver pieces.  So I like to read stories or anectdotal discussions about how dealers and graders and collectors value these coins over time.   For instance, right now, Carson City Morgans are super-hot....any raw coins submitted are catching the TPGs at a good time.  Maybe you get a bit of leeway and get that extra 1/2 to 1 point grade boost based on specific factors that your grader(s) just happened to "like" that day.

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On 6/11/2022 at 11:34 PM, VKurtB said:

And I’d add that grading has only gotten better, not worse. There is no valid reason to be nostalgic for TPG the way it was done 30-35 years ago. 

I think the consensus is that grading was more "conservative" from the TPG inception to about 2000 (some say 2004).  Then things got loose for a decade or so.

JMHO. :)

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