NGC Coin Grading At Orlando Fun Coin Show 2 2

[Errorists]

On 5/22/2022 at 3:02 PM, Alex in PA. said:

(t)Errorist = DUD.*

*Unexploded ordinance.      

Still need EOD for those..

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2022 at 12:57 PM, Errorists said:

10 bucks for slabs should be less then a buck. Rip off.. Need new slab supplier.

You checked the price of any petroleum or plastics-related product lately ?  You're not in 2019 anymore. 

And yes I know it usually costs (way) more than $10...but for that you get a nice holder....certification and grade....listed in the registry/archives for that TPG.....etc.

You have quality professionals (some of whom are on these forums) spending their valuable time on your coin.  They're not a charity, they have to earn a living.

Maybe on a lower-priced coin the $$$ are a nuisance to you.  For myself, usually buying nice silver or gold coins ranging from $150 - $2,500.....I'm happy to pay an extra $30-$50 or whatever it costs for the convenience, protection, and grade on the holder.  Light-years better than having a raw coin in a velvet pouch.

Edited May 22, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[AdamWL]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, Errorists said:

Coin shows should be a place where you can go view coins and buy some if you want and have fun. It is no longer fun when you have to pay more then the regular price for your coins being graded. In fact it would be fun if they had discounted prices for such coin shows. Because of these higher rates I will not be going this year to the fun show because it is no longer any fun..

"Coin shows should be a place where you can go view coins and buy some if you want and have fun." I agree with this.  And I think coin shows are fun and are a great way to buy coins you've examined in person. If you do your homework and look around enough, you can find some great deals on coins too.

What I don't understand is why you think shows and grading (especially at a discount) are so linked and that should be expected. I don't even consider grading as a factor in whether or not I attend a show. As Oldhoopster pointed out there are a lot of costs, logistics, etc involved and working on a weekend as well.

Why not just mail your coins in? If that is too expensive to you as well, then maybe your coins aren't worth being graded.

[Errorists]

On 5/22/2022 at 4:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You checked the price of any petroleum or plastics-related product lately ?  You're not in 2019 anymore. 

And yes I know it usually costs (way) more than $10...but for that you get a nice holder....certification and grade....listed in the registry/archives for that TPG.....etc.

You have quality professionals (some of whom are on these forums) spending their valuable time on your coin.  They're not a charity, they have to earn a living.

Maybe on a lower-priced coin the $$$ are a nuisance to you.  For myself, usually buying nice silver or gold coins ranging from $150 - $2,500.....I'm happy to pay an extra $30-$50 or whatever it costs for the convenience, protection, and grade on the holder.  Light-years better than having a raw coin in a velvet pouch.

Are you for real less then a half ounce of plastic is more then 10 bucks?

[Oldhoopster]

On 5/22/2022 at 7:07 PM, Errorists said:

Are you for real less then a half ounce of plastic is more then 10 bucks?

Are you for real?  Do you have any clue on how business and manufacturing work?  

Your responses are doing nothing but lowering your credibility and validity.  

[RWB]

On 5/22/2022 at 7:07 PM, Errorists said:

Are you for real less then a half ounce of plastic is more then 10 bucks?

It's not even the plastic pieces that count -- it's the little 3 gram slip of paper with a bit of ink glopped on it....that's what your get for your money.

Edited May 23, 2022 by RWB

[Errorists]

On 5/22/2022 at 7:03 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Are you for real?  Do you have any clue on how business and manufacturing work?  

Your responses are doing nothing but lowering your credibility and validity.  

Are you for real for even entertaining this? If they told you 100 bucks you'd be ok with it.. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2022 at 7:07 PM, Errorists said:

Are you for real less then a half ounce of plastic is more then 10 bucks?

Pricing is set at the margin.  Global supply disruptions have put an end to just-in-time inventory.

You have a secure holder....tamper-proof case....nice label.....grade.  It takes probably 30-60 minutes to process and produce ALL the product and information from the time they get your coin. 

They're not doing it for $10.  This isn't 1963. 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:47 PM, Errorists said:

Are you for real for even entertaining this? If they told you 100 bucks you'd be ok with it.. 

If I had a very valuable coin....and they spent more than 20 seconds on it....maybe 45-90 seconds....yeah, I'd be OK paying that.

My uncle had a painting that cost about $25,000.  Had an expert come in to verify authenticity and confirm the value for insurance purposes.   Drove 20 minutes round-trip...spent 5 minutes in my uncle's living room with the picture.

Final Bill:  $750.  

Edited May 23, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[MarkFeld]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If I had a very valuable coin....and they spent more than 20 seconds on it....maybe 45-90 seconds....yeah, I'd be OK paying that.

My uncle had a painting that cost about $25,000.  Had an expert come in to verify authenticity and confirm the value for insurance purposes.   Drove 20 minutes round-trip...spent 5 minutes in my uncle's living room with the picture.

Final Bill:  $750.  

I think those who respond are being played.

Edited May 23, 2022 by MarkFeld

[VKurtB]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:19 PM, MarkFeld said:

I think those who respond are being played.

We clearly have troll OP here who understands LESS THAN NOTHING about the coin hobby and business, and even far less than that about authentication and grading. I wonder what he’d think of the fact that the CHEAPEST fee for the vast majority of errors and varieties would be $19 for the modern coin, $18 extra for the variety or error, $10 for the handling charge, plus the return shipping that is not insignificant. He has no clue about this field. 

[Errorists]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If I had a very valuable coin....and they spent more than 20 seconds on it....maybe 45-90 seconds....yeah, I'd be OK paying that.

My uncle had a painting that cost about $25,000.  Had an expert come in to verify authenticity and confirm the value for insurance purposes.   Drove 20 minutes round-trip...spent 5 minutes in my uncle's living room with the picture.

Final Bill:  $750.  

 

On 5/22/2022 at 8:37 PM, VKurtB said:

We clearly have troll OP here who understands LESS THAN NOTHING about the coin hobby and business, and even far less than that about authentication and grading. I wonder what he’d think of the fact that the CHEAPEST fee for the vast majority of errors and varieties would be $19 for the modern coin, $18 extra for the variety or error, $10 for the handling charge, plus the return shipping that is not insignificant. He has no clue about this field. 

30 bucks at the coin show. Sheez what a rip off. Some deal. Really makes me want to go this year..

[VKurtB]

On 5/22/2022 at 9:00 PM, Errorists said:

 

30 bucks at the coin show. Sheez what a rip off. Some deal. Really makes me want to go this year..

No, $37 for each coin MINIMUM plus a fixed charge of $10 for each form. Then add return shipping, so as much as $60 for a single coin. This also illustrates why it pays to submit numerous coins together. I don’t do errors and varieties so I save the $18 per coin. 
 

I’ve only ever done one “at the show” pickup submission in 2014, and that was $50 plus the processing fee, which was then $8.

Edited May 23, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:00 PM, Errorists said:

 

30 bucks at the coin show. Sheez what a rip off. Some deal. Really makes me want to go this year..

OK, we get it....you don't think the fees for grading are worth the $$$.  Then just don't pay it.

The rest of us consider grading fees the price of admission to a hobby that without it would become The Wild, Wild West. 

And like I said....there are material and professional costs involved in getting a coin holdered.  How would YOU like to be told to provide your services or goods that you make a living on at 25% or 50% of your normal rate ?

[Errorists]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK, we get it....you don't think the fees for grading are worth the $$$.  Then just don't pay it.

The rest of us consider grading fees the price of admission to a hobby that without it would become The Wild, Wild West. 

And like I said....there are material and professional costs involved in getting a coin holdered.  How would YOU like to be told to provide your services or goods that you make a living on at 25% or 50% of your normal rate ?

I'm sure they can make a living with over 50 million coins graded and over a billion dollars made. Scares me to think 500 million was spent on plastic holders at 10 dollars per holder. I bet they pay less then a dollar per holder. Anything more and they are getting ripped off.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Errorists

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/23/2022 at 9:21 AM, Errorists said:

I'm sure they can make a living with over 50 million coins graded and over a billion dollars made. Scares me to think 500 million was spent on plastic holders at 10 dollars per holder. I bet they pay less then a dollar per holder. Anything more and they are getting ripped off.

There's backlogs right now.  Baseball card graders are in short supply; no more submittances as of a few months ago.

It's not as bad with coins, but when you consider the improvements in the tamper-proof slabs....the designs of the holders....the nice labels.....and the grade.....I think most think they are getting their money's worth.

Maybe on cheaper coins it's not something you consider cost-effective.   To each his own.

I'm happy to pay for a holder and grading on any of my $150 moderns or my modern/pre-1933 gold coins.

[RWB]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:07 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Baseball card graders are in short supply;

That's correct. Some card authentication companies are putting their baseball card graders into giant slabs so they can't escape! (According to the internet and the "Truth (and Lies).con" website.)

[VKurtB]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:21 AM, Errorists said:

I'm sure they can make a living with over 50 million coins graded and over a billion dollars made. Scares me to think 500 million was spent on plastic holders at 10 dollars per holder. I bet they pay less then a dollar per holder. Anything more and they are getting ripped off.

The plastics (plural) used are not among the cheaper ones (at the two top firms). Both need to be free of outgassing that would affect the coin adversely. The inner holder plastic needs to be pliable enough to be flexed enough to get around the coin yet still hold it firmly, all while not outgassing, as nearly all flexible plastics do. The outer plastic needs to nearly instantaneously respond to ultrasonic vibration by melting to create the seal between the front and the back half of the capsule, while not affecting the inner coin holding softer plastic. And the outer shell also needs to accept the scratch resistant treatment used for those who elect that. Just like every part of what @Errorists believes, it is far more complicated than he could ever imagine. 

[Alex in PA.]

On 5/22/2022 at 9:19 PM, MarkFeld said:

I think those who respond are being played.

Bullseye.  

[Oldhoopster]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:06 PM, VKurtB said:

The plastics (plural) used are not among the cheaper ones (at the two top firms). Both need to be free of outgassing that would affect the coin adversely. The inner holder plastic needs to be pliable enough to be flexed enough to get around the coin yet still hold it firmly, all while not outgassing, as nearly all flexible plastics do. The outer plastic needs to nearly instantaneously respond to ultrasonic vibration by melting to create the seal between the front and the back half of the capsule, while not affecting the inner coin holding softer plastic. And the outer shell also needs to accept the scratch resistant treatment used for those who elect that. Just like every part of what @Errorists believes, it is far more complicated than he could ever imagine. 

@VKurtB

Errorists fully understands this.  If you read his responses, it's impossible for someone to be that naive about the world, especially when he keeps doubling down.  Nothing more than a TROLL. 

I know it can be hard, but let's just ignore them (i know, I'm guilty of spending too much time feeding them)

[VKurtB]

On 5/22/2022 at 11:13 AM, Oldhoopster said:

Ok. That pretty much explains your thoughts.  Figured as much

Did you consider that the grading company has extra costs associated with the expenses of the graders at the show?  The logistics of moving and setting up their equipment?  Did you figure in the convenience for submitters that they don't have to worry about shipping issues (at least shipping to the grader).  The convenience of on site turnaround?  While it seems these conveniences are not worth the extra cost to you, they apparently are to others.

Don't forget, the TPGs are a business and need to justify costs.  It would be nice if there were discounts, but the real world doesn't always work that way.  But by all means, keep insisting they are price gouging at shows.  BTW: Nobody is stopping you from using the standard submission method

Well Hoop, if you insist. Guess I’m off to the WalMart to pick up a nice seeded watermelon for seed spittin’ distance, plus an anemometer to be sure I’m not too wind aided for official record purposes. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:25 PM, Oldhoopster said:

@VKurtB

Errorists fully understands this.  If you read his responses, it's impossible for someone to be that naive about the world, especially when he keeps doubling down.  Nothing more than a TROLL. 

I know it can be hard, but let's just ignore them (i know, I'm guilty of spending too much time feeding them)

...alternative......i think its called Rid-x.......

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/23/2022 at 9:21 AM, Errorists said:

I'm sure they can make a living with over 50 million coins graded and over a billion dollars made. Scares me to think 500 million was spent on plastic holders at 10 dollars per holder. I bet they pay less then a dollar per holder. Anything more and they are getting ripped off.

The companies don't dislose lots of their information, but based on what CU told shareholders when it was a public company we know (1) profit margins were mediocre at best (2) the firms didn't make anywhere NEAR $1 billion dollars (even Dr. Evil agrees !  ).

[VKurtB]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:08 PM, zadok said:

...alternative......i think its called Rid-x.......

The septic system stuff? Fascinating. 

[Henri Charriere]

The most amusing thing about this thread, and I have read every comment posted on it, is everyone with only one notable exception, has committed irreversible error: They've taken you seriously.  I understand you and sense your frustration. You're a fish out of water seeking validation. A vacancy developed when I eloped recently. I believe you to be a worthy successor to the throne. I hereby relinquish my duties as creatively imagined by others and appoint you to be my official spokesperson and successor. No need for me to stick my neck out anymore. You've got the right blend of rascality, mischievousness and spunk. If anybody objects, speak up now or forever hold your pieces (sic).     

[Errorists]

Huge coin shows like this the customer should get discounts not charged extra then what they normally would be charged during the rest of the year. It's good customer relations.

[Henri Charriere]

I am prepared to go much much further than you on this [and that's why I feel you would be a good advocate for a hobby that no one wants to acknowledge is hemorrhaging members continually].

The legal profession recognizes and accepts pro bono representation by lawyers on behalf of their firms. In the medical profession, a patient can seek a second opinion. I don't know what it costs to throw a convention or even how much it costs a penny lady to ride circuit, but I don't see the coin profession, as viewed from the street, as doing anything charitable to drum up business. If one venerable member of note, can laudably,  donate his time and services and volunteer to do grunt work to keep the juggernaut running, I don't see why retired graders cannot donate their time and services, too. Money isn't everything and in the end you cannot take it with you. Perhaps our colleague Errorist isn't presenting the matter with the sense of urgency it deserves. Are we, as a serious hobby doing all we can to attract new members while holding onto the ones we have? If not, what could be done better? I probably won't be around by then, but I can only hope NGC sees the light and distinguishes itself by trying a different tack. How about a 50th anniversary celebration with conventions sponsored by any number of heavily-endowed foundations featuring authentication and grading for at least young numismatists at founding year's prices? Don't allow yourselves to be swallowed up by the naysayers. Be positive! How can things be done differently? If a corner soup kitchen can foot the bills of daily meals via funds drawn on a late benefactors will or trust, maybe that's an idea whose time has come for coins. I would have no trouble contributing a modest sum in support of such a fund. If I win a Powerball, look out NGC! ALL CUSTOMERS WILL BE TREATED LIKE LONG-TIME FRIENDS AND GUESTS. Maybe we will come to you like Publisher's Clearinghouse does. All food for thought. What's needed is new blood and new ways of thinking.

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:06 PM, VKurtB said:

The plastics (plural) used are not among the cheaper ones (at the two top firms). Both need to be free of outgassing that would affect the coin adversely. The inner holder plastic needs to be pliable enough to be flexed enough to get around the coin yet still hold it firmly, all while not outgassing, as nearly all flexible plastics do. The outer plastic needs to nearly instantaneously respond to ultrasonic vibration by melting to create the seal between the front and the back half of the capsule, while not affecting the inner coin holding softer plastic. And the outer shell also needs to accept the scratch resistant treatment used for those who elect that. Just like every part of what @Errorists believes, it is far more complicated than he could ever imagine. 

So complicated that they can be routinely  cracked open.

[Oldhoopster]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:22 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

So complicated that they can be routinely  cracked open.

But complicated enough so that when they are cracked open, the tampering is evident.  

[Oldhoopster]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:15 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I am prepared to go much much further than you on this [and that's why I feel you would be a good advocate for a hobby that no one wants to acknowledge is hemorrhaging members continually].

The legal profession recognizes and accepts pro bono representation by lawyers on behalf of their firms. In the medical profession, a patient can seek a second opinion. I don't know what it costs to throw a convention or even how much it costs a penny lady to ride circuit, but I don't see the coin profession, as viewed from the street, as doing anything charitable to drum up business. If one venerable member of note, can laudably,  donate his time and services and volunteer to do grunt work to keep the juggernaut running, I don't see why retired graders cannot donate their time and services, too. Money isn't everything and in the end you cannot take it with you. Perhaps our colleague Errorist isn't presenting the matter with the sense of urgency it deserves. Are we, as a serious hobby doing all we can to attract new members while holding onto the ones we have? If not, what could be done better? I probably won't be around by then, but I can only hope NGC sees the light and distinguishes itself by trying a different tack. How about a 50th anniversary celebration with conventions sponsored by any number of heavily-endowed foundations featuring authentication and grading for at least young numismatists at founding year's prices? Don't allow yourselves to be swallowed up by the naysayers. Be positive! How can things be done differently? If a corner soup kitchen can foot the bills of daily meals via funds drawn on a late benefactors will or trust, maybe that's an idea whose time has come for coins. I would have no trouble contributing a modest sum in support of such a fund. If I win a Powerball, look out NGC! ALL CUSTOMERS WILL BE TREATED LIKE LONG-TIME FRIENDS AND GUESTS. Maybe we will come to you like Publisher's Clearinghouse does. All food for thought. What's needed is new blood and new ways of thinking.

Grader and TPG staff do provide pro bono work.  Mr Lange posts regularly on this site.  @Insider is active on some of the forums.  I've seen posts from the NGC ancient coin authenticators on the ancient forums. Fred Weinberg, recently retired error dealer and PCGS consultant offers great advice on various forums.  And they don't charge for it