Tail feathers on Quarters 1 1

[Hoghead515]

I had the day off work so I figured Id spend some time admiring some of my coins. Ive noticed this for a long time but looking through my quarters today brought back my curiousity. Ive been wanting to ask this question for a long time. What is the reason the tail feathers are so weak on quarters? Also the tops of the leaves in that area? While putting together this set Ive noticed its very hard to find one with tail feathers that are storngly struck. Even on quarters where everything else is well struck. Is it due to the relief of them or something such as that? Ive been wondering about this for a long time and thought of possibilities but would love to hear some expert opinions. The photo below is one example of one of my coins. Its a 1934. But it really seems like all the 1940's I have are the worst. 

[Hoghead515]

One theory I thought of was It took lots of metal to fill in Washingtons head and didnt let it strike the tail feathers on the reverse as well. 

[Just Bob]

I believe you just answered your own question. 

[Hoghead515]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:02 PM, Just Bob said:

I believe you just answered your own question. 

Thank you @Just BobIve been thinking of that theory but didnt know if it was correct. I always considered it a possibility.  Thanks for confirming it. 

[DWLange]

The tail feathers were weak in Flanagan's original model, as was the motto IN GOD WE TRUST. The latter feature was fixed in 1934, but the tail feathers weren't sharpened until 1965, when a new reverse hub was created for the clad coins. One of my favorite varieties is the 1964-D silver quarter struck from a reverse die intended for the clad issues. It has the sharpened reverse and looks very different from normal 1964-D quarters: https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/quarters/washington-quarters-1932-1998/817165/

[Hoghead515]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:31 PM, DWLange said:

The tail feathers were weak in Flanagan's original model, as was the motto IN GOD WE TRUST. The latter feature was fixed in 1934, but the tail feathers weren't sharpened until 1965, when a new reverse hub was created for the clad coins. One of my favorite varieties is the 1964-D silver quarter struck from a reverse die intended for the clad issues. It has the sharpened reverse and looks very different from normal 1964-D quarters: https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/quarters/washington-quarters-1932-1998/817165/

Thank you Mr Lange. That looks much better than the normal reverse. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/19/2022 at 11:31 AM, DWLange said:

The tail feathers were weak in Flanagan's original model, as was the motto IN GOD WE TRUST. The latter feature was fixed in 1934, but the tail feathers weren't sharpened until 1965, when a new reverse hub was created for the clad coins. One of my favorite varieties is the 1964-D silver quarter struck from a reverse die intended for the clad issues. It has the sharpened reverse and looks very different from normal 1964-D quarters: https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/quarters/washington-quarters-1932-1998/817165/

Brings up an interesting question: have any 1965’s been identified as having been struck with a 1964 reverse die? Or even vice versa since silver 64’s and clad 65’s were being struck concurrently. 

[DWLange]

I have not heard of any 1965-dated quarters with the Type A reverse typically used for the silver issues. As you noted, however, both 1964-dated and 1965-dated quarters were being struck simultaneously from the the fall of 1965 through July of 1966, so such an error is possible.

[VKurtB]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:23 PM, DWLange said:

I have not heard of any 1965-dated quarters with the Type A reverse typically used for the silver issues. As you noted, however, both 1964-dated and 1965-dated quarters were being struck simultaneously from the the fall of 1965 through July of 1966, so such an error is possible.

Something to keep newbie variety collectors busy. 

[Hoghead515]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:47 PM, VKurtB said:

Something to keep newbie variety collectors busy. 

They sure need another to look for. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Hoghead515

[RWB]

On 5/19/2022 at 11:49 AM, Hoghead515 said:

One theory I thought of was It took lots of metal to fill in Washingtons head and didnt let it strike the tail feathers on the reverse as well. 

The highest relief portions require the greatest movement of metal. Tail feathers at low relief. Now, think it through again....;)

[Hoghead515]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:13 PM, RWB said:

The highest relief portions require the greatest movement of metal. Tail feathers at low relief. Now, think it through again....;)

They should have filled up first then shouldnt they? Was it due to the relief of the engraving itself? Mr Langes response actually answered that question. When he said they fixed that problem in 1965. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Hoghead515

[RWB]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:32 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Was it due to the relief of the engraving itself?

Yep. The relief was intentionally very low, and quite typical of John Sinnock's work. He clearly did not have the skill of making low relief look higher that George Morgan possessed.

Edited May 20, 2022 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 5/19/2022 at 9:55 PM, RWB said:

Yep. The relief was intentionally very low, and quite typical of John Sinnock's work. He clearly did not have the skill of making low relief look higher that George Morgan possessed.

Sinnock’s work has been abused numerous times over the years. I offer as but one example the “spaghetti hair” era of 1992-1998, and the differing relief between even the state quarters vs. the ATB series. Then the non-ATB 2021 quarters truly hitting a home run on Sinnock’s work. 

[Hoghead515]

I got a 1940 proof. Its graded pf65 by NGC. Its also got a CAC sticker on it. I noticed the tail feathers and motto are weak on it also. Its the only proof I have so far of the early Washingtons. After Im done with business strikes Im gonna eventually start on proofs. But anyways I see that early proofs were also affected.  I still like his design. I like it way better than the one that came out this year. 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Hoghead515

[RWB]

Polishing the dies also made the tail feathers less prominent....

[VKurtB]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, RWB said:

Polishing the dies also made the tail feathers less prominent....

I hate it when that happens. 

[Hoghead515]

My pictures are horrible but they may show enough to see what I mean. The scratches on the obverse are on the holder. The coin actually looks pretty good in hand. Looks like someones kid had hold of it after it was slabbed. Or they just tossed it in a drawer or something and scuffed it all to pieces. Is there anything you can do for a scuffed up holder? Other than reholder it? Looks like the tailfeathers are bout gone. You can still see them coin in hand but they are weak. 

[DWLange]

When the tailfeathers became too weak from repolishing of the proof dies the Mint would reinforce them by hand with gravers. NGC recognizes several such varieties, which are becoming more popular as collectors learn of them:

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/quarters/washington-quarters-1932-1998/?page=1

Once at this site, click the PF tab at upper right to see the proof listings.

[Hoghead515]

On 5/21/2022 at 10:15 AM, DWLange said:

When the tailfeathers became too weak from repolishing of the proof dies the Mint would reinforce them by hand with gravers. NGC recognizes several such varieties, which are becoming more popular as collectors learn of them:

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/quarters/washington-quarters-1932-1998/?page=1

Once at this site, click the PF tab at upper right to see the proof listings.

Very interesting. I never knew they done that. Thanks for sharing. 

[RWB]

As Mr. Lange noted, manual die retouching was quite common on 1936-42 and 1950-1956 proofs. Quarters, especially the reverse, and cents on the obverse coat and tie, were especially vulnerable.

[zadok]

On 5/21/2022 at 12:15 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Very interesting. I never knew they done that. Thanks for sharing. 

...nuf this tail feather stuff....lets get down to the really important stuff, America wants to know...did u catch that catfish on ur birthday? n i want to know...did ur wife bait ur hook?...either way a happy belated birthday i was out of town for a few days trying to catch a turtle.....

[Hoghead515]

On 5/22/2022 at 5:29 AM, zadok said:

...nuf this tail feather stuff....lets get down to the really important stuff, America wants to know...did u catch that catfish on ur birthday? n i want to know...did ur wife bait ur hook?...either way a happy belated birthday i was out of town for a few days trying to catch a turtle.....

I caught 2 little catfish but they were only about 8 inches long. I ended up having to bait the old ladys hook. She ended up catching the biggest ones. Hope you caught that turtle my friend.