VAM's 2 2

[Errorists]

How old do coins have to be to be considered a VAM?

[DWLange]

VAM varieties apply only to Morgan and Peace Dollars, 1878-1935.

[Woods020]

Vam stands for Van Allen & Mallis, who did a die study of Morgan and Peace dollars. VAMs only apply to those two series, and only the originals. These new reproductions wouldn’t apply. 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:15 AM, DWLange said:

VAM varieties apply only to Morgan and Peace Dollars, 1878-1935.

Hum doesn't seem fair.. 

[RWB]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:36 AM, Errorists said:

Hum doesn't seem fair.. 

Why not? Other coin series have their own variety designation systems. However, VAM silver dollar varieties are the only ones that have gotten so contorted and confusing that they have evidently become their own impediment to attracting and retaining new collectors. (Just an observational opinion.)

[Woods020]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:36 AM, Errorists said:

Hum doesn't seem fair.. 

[Oldhoopster]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:04 AM, Errorists said:

How old do coins have to be to be considered a VAM?

 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:36 AM, Errorists said:

Hum doesn't seem fair.. 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 2:46 PM, Oldhoopster said:

 

Vams should be across all coinage.

[DWLange]

As noted above, VAM stands for Van Allen & Mallis. They had no interest in other dollar coins, so that's why there are no VAMs for other series and never will be. It seems pretty straightforward.

[Oldhoopster]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:50 PM, Errorists said:

Vams should be across all coinage.

If you do a little research instead of trying to figure out cute, irrelevant names for common minor errors, you'll find out that many series do have the equivalent of VAM varieties. 

Large cents use Sheldon and Newcomb numbers, colonials use Miller, Ryder and others, early half dimes have Logan/McCloskey and Valentine, Mint varieties have the Fivaz and Stanton Cherry Pickers Guide, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:57 PM, Oldhoopster said:

If you do a little research instead of trying to figure out cute, irrelevant names for common minor errors, you'll find out that many series do have the equivalent of VAM varieties. 

Large cents use Sheldon and Newcomb numbers, colonials use Miller, Ryder and others, early half dimes have Logan/McCloskey and Valentine, Mint varieties have the Fivaz and Stanton Cherry Pickers Guide, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

Even the Scarface Morgan is a die crack.. Many other fine examples for Morgan and Peace dollar business strike die cracks... 

[Oldhoopster]

Yes, and some VAM varieties use those cracks to identify a specific die and the sequence Morgan dies were used.  Did you not read the earlier explanations?

Here is a link for the current VAM listings.  Please take the time to read through it.  This should help you understand why some die cracks warrant their own VAM while most do not and are only used to track die states.  You really need to understand this if you're going to insist that minor die breaks on state quarters are equivalent.  

www.vamworld.com/wiki/Home 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:23 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Yes, and some VAM varieties use those cracks to identify a specific die and the sequence Morgan dies were used.  Did you not read the earlier explanations?

Here is a link for the current VAM listings.  Please take the time to read through it.  This should help you understand why some die cracks warrant their own VAM while most do not and are only used to track die states.  You really need to understand this if you're going to insist that minor die breaks on state quarters are equivalent.  

www.vamworld.com/wiki/Home 

The smaller early stage  Scarface die cracked morgan is worth more then the larger late stage Scarface Morgan. So don't deminish minor..

[FlyingAl]

You seem to have no interest in listening to the very valid, clear, and respectful opinions of those here. You are arguing a moot point and it's doing nothing to help. With all due respect, it seems to me you've hit rock bottom in this discussion and you've just kept digging. Take the correct answers that the members here have given and stop arguing that two men (one now dead, RIP) were wrong.

The best thing you can do in this hobby is listen to those who know more than you and more importantly, recognize when someone does know more than you. Best of luck in your collecting.

[Oldhoopster]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:33 PM, Errorists said:

The smaller early stage  Scarface die cracked morgan is worth more then the larger late stage Scarface Morgan. So don't deminish minor..

So you're saying that VAM collectors prefer the earlier die state because it has a minor crack and have less interest in the larger crack.  Why? Do you really believe they think a minor crack is highly desirable?

I'm beginning to think you're just an alt user trying to troll the board and that I wasted my time trying to help you.  It won't happen again.  And if I'm mistaken and you really are a newbie, I think you're squandering a wonderful opportunity to learn from some top shelf numismatic researchers and experienced collectors that are members here.  Hopefully you haven't alienated them as well.  Best if luck moving forward

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:50 PM, Oldhoopster said:

So you're saying that VAM collectors prefer the earlier die state because it has a minor crack and have less interest in the larger crack.  Why? Do you really believe they think a minor crack is highly desirable?

I'm beginning to think you're just an alt user trying to troll the board and that I wasted my time trying to help you.  It won't happen again.  And if I'm mistaken and you really are a newbie, I think you're squandering a wonderful opportunity to learn from some top shelf numismatic researchers and experienced collectors that are members here.  Hopefully you haven't alienated them as well.  Best if luck moving forward

The market for that early die state die crack Scarface Morgan VAM says so not me. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Errorists

[FlyingAl]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:17 PM, Errorists said:

The market for that early die state die crack Scarface Morgan VAM says so not me. 

If you don't know how VAMs are attributed and you don't even know what they are, I severely doubt you have any grasp at all what the market says. There are people who study the market for decades and still don't get it at points. 

I would almost guarantee that no VAM collector in their right mind would pay more for a more minor die crack. That would mean that all of your die crack coins are worthless because I want to pay more for coins without them (the most minor crack of all- none!). Do you think that's true?

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:33 PM, FlyingAl said:

If you don't know how VAMs are attributed and you don't even know what they are, I severely doubt you have any grasp at all what the market says. There are people who study the market for decades and still don't get it at points. 

I would almost guarantee that no VAM collector in their right mind would pay more for a more minor die crack. That would mean that all of your die crack coins are worthless because I want to pay more for coins without them (the most minor crack of all- none!). Do you think that's true?

I have Vam Morgans and know die flaws created them. Just because you don't like the flaws including die cracks on them doesn't mean other people feel like you do..

Edited April 12, 2022 by Errorists

[Oldhoopster]

You said not to "diminish minor cracks" because the early die state Scarface VAM is worth more than the late state. This sounds like you believe the VAM collectors are primarily interested in the die crack and not something else

So I'll ask the questions again (hopefully with a little more clarity)

1. Based on your previous comment, do you believe the size of the die crack is the reason why the early die state is more desirable and valuable than the later die state?

2. Why?

If you're going to make contrarian statements regarding minor errors, you need to provide some justification.  Maybe it's right or maybe it's wrong, but at least the board can have a legitimate discussion.  Throwing out random statements is just a waste of bandwidth

@VKurtB I'm believing you more and more regarding new collectors.  Next time, remind me to quit wasting my time on people who have no desire to learn 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[FlyingAl]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:41 PM, Errorists said:

Just because you don't like the flaws including die cracks on them doesn't mean other people do..

I have nothing against die varieties. I made a statement that is adjusted based on YOUR logic. Do you have something against die varieties? Or is your logic just plain wrong?

Also, @Oldhoopster, I just checked CoinFacts and recently sold Scarface Morgans. The early die state is not valued any more, in fact, the closer that die was to falling apart in the press, the more value the coin has. Who knows where this idea that the minor crack was worth more came from.

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:42 PM, Oldhoopster said:

You said not to "diminish minor cracks" because the early die state Scarface VAM is worth more than the late state. This sounds like you believe the VAM collectors are primarily interested in the die crack and not something else

So I'll ask the questions again (hopefully with a little more clarity)

1. Based on your previous comment, do you believe the size of the die crack is the reason why the value early die state is more desirable and valuable than the later die state?

2. Why?

If you're going to make contrarian statements regarding minor errors, you need to provide some justification.  Maybe it's right or maybe it's wrong, but at least the board can have a legitimate discussion.  Throwing out random statements is just a waste of bandwidth

@VKurtB I'm believing you more and more regarding new collectors.  Next time, remind me to quit wasting my time on people who have no desire to learn 

 

Nah. I think it is more of a case of the flaw looking like something else from what it was intended to be. Early or late die state cracks really don't matter to me and I have passed on few of them if they don't have those extra attributes..

[VKurtB]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:42 PM, Oldhoopster said:

You said not to "diminish minor cracks" because the early die state Scarface VAM is worth more than the late state. This sounds like you believe the VAM collectors are primarily interested in the die crack and not something else

So I'll ask the questions again (hopefully with a little more clarity)

1. Based on your previous comment, do you believe the size of the die crack is the reason why the early die state is more desirable and valuable than the later die state?

2. Why?

If you're going to make contrarian statements regarding minor errors, you need to provide some justification.  Maybe it's right or maybe it's wrong, but at least the board can have a legitimate discussion.  Throwing out random statements is just a waste of bandwidth

@VKurtB I'm believing you more and more regarding new collectors.  Next time, remind me to quit wasting my time on people who have no desire to learn 

 

I really wish I were wrong, but there is so much evidence that this generation coming up now is even MORE annoying, and pleased with themselves, SOMEHOW, than even my age contemporaries were, and that’s a fantastically high bar. And my generation contains the grey haired pony tail wearing, Subaru or Volvo wagon driving, dope smoking unrepentant hippies. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:42 PM, Oldhoopster said:

You said not to "diminish minor cracks" because the early die state Scarface VAM is worth more than the late state. This sounds like you believe the VAM collectors are primarily interested in the die crack and not something else

So I'll ask the questions again (hopefully with a little more clarity)

1. Based on your previous comment, do you believe the size of the die crack is the reason why the early die state is more desirable and valuable than the later die state?

2. Why?

If you're going to make contrarian statements regarding minor errors, you need to provide some justification.  Maybe it's right or maybe it's wrong, but at least the board can have a legitimate discussion.  Throwing out random statements is just a waste of bandwidth

@VKurtB I'm believing you more and more regarding new collectors.  Next time, remind me to quit wasting my time on people who have no desire to learn 

 

Re: Scarface dollars.

I had no idea that Tony Montana had ever appeared on a silver dollar. So were dimes and quarters his “little friends”? 

[Woods020]

On 4/12/2022 at 7:53 PM, Errorists said:

Nah. I think it is more of a case of the flaw looking like something else from what it was intended to be. Early or late die state cracks really don't matter to me and I have passed on few of them if they don't have those extra attributes..

Do you have any idea how many die cracks are on Morgans? And very few of them result in any interest. Many are dramatic and encircle almost the full coin. I assure you VAM collectors don’t get excited about die cracks with a few exceptions. And to argue they like small die cracks is true ignorance. Study Morgans for a while and see how many die cracks you can find. It will keep you busy for a long long time. They are rarely even definitive diagnostics of a VAM. 

[Woods020]

On 4/12/2022 at 7:41 PM, Errorists said:

I have Vam Morgans and know die flaws created them. Just because you don't like the flaws including die cracks on them doesn't mean other people feel like you do..

This is incorrect again. Every die combination is a VAM. A completely normal Morgan is a VAM (usually 1). Some are subdivided by die state as well. Some flaws make some VAMs more desirable. Primarily rarity of the die marrieds/state is what drives VAM values. It’s not necessarily if it has a die crack, or if the crack is large or small. It has to do with rarity. If you study VAMs look at the rarity rating. That’s what drives most of the value because VAM collectors try and get them all. 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:19 PM, Woods020 said:

Do you have any idea how many die cracks are on Morgans? And very few of them result in any interest. Many are dramatic and encircle almost the full coin. I assure you VAM collectors don’t get excited about die cracks with a few exceptions. And to argue they like small die cracks is true ignorance. Study Morgans for a while and see how many die cracks you can find. It will keep you busy for a long long time. They are rarely even definitive diagnostics of a VAM. 

Where did I argue collectors like small die cracks? 

[Woods020]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:30 PM, Errorists said:

Where did I argue collectors like small die cracks? 

Stating the smaller, early state scar face is more appealing. If anything is driving a preference it would be rarity of that one. Nothing to do with die crack size. 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:32 PM, Woods020 said:

Stating the smaller, early state scar face is more appealing. If anything is driving a preference it would be rarity of that one. Nothing to do with die crack size. 

Didn't say appealing..

[Oldhoopster]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:30 PM, Errorists said:

Where did I argue collectors like small die cracks? 

Right here.  How else can you interpret it?  I even asked twice if that's what you meant, and you kept blowing smoke instead of answering.

On 4/12/2022 at 5:33 PM, Errorists said:

The smaller early stage  Scarface die cracked morgan is worth more then the larger late stage Scarface Morgan. So don't deminish minor..

 

[Errorists]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:44 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Right here.  How else can you interpret it?  I even asked twice if that's what you meant, and you kept blowing smoke instead of answering.

 

I can't help it if you don't like my answer. Seems people pay over 10k for such minor/major die cracks on Scarface Morgans. Geeeez who would have thunk it??