VAM's
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58 posts in this topic

On 4/12/2022 at 10:59 PM, Errorists said:

I can't help it if you don't like my answer. Seems people pay over 10k for such minor/major die cracks on Scarface Morgans. Geeeez who would have thunk it??

Look this will be my last time arguing with you, but I keep thinking you will want to learn. 
 

The driving force of any VAM value is rarity. Yes it’s neat to see a huge die break across the face, but that only has so much to do with value. They aren’t buying the crack per se they are buying VAM 1B, which is a rarity. Once the die reached a state that the crack was visible the life span of that die was short, also known as terminal die state. As a result of being in a late state that would soon be unusable, there aren’t a ton of that VAM since VAM 1B for the 1888-O is the late stage of the first die pair. The die soon shattered or was retired once this crack occurred. As I’ve said VAM collectors want to try to collect them all, so the ones with low numbers drive large premiums. It’s identical to Overton varieties and bust halves, which by the way also have a ton of die cracks of no interest other than determining die state. 
 

Also for the record your argument about the smaller the die break the more value couldn’t be more wrong. You kind of glossed over that when called on it. Here is the description from PCGS. 

B02F1E29-06B6-4806-AA01-1EB687474024.jpeg

Edited by Woods020
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On 4/12/2022 at 9:19 PM, Woods020 said:

Also for the record your argument about the smaller the die break the more value couldn’t be more wrong. You kind of glossed over that when called on it.

@Errorists This. Both I and @Oldhoopster brought this up multiple times. You dodged and avoided the question, and it seems you view the Scarface as a "minor" die crack. It's not, when compared to the minor cracks you constantly post about this die was practically falling apart. The value of the Scarface goes up drastically based on how dramatic the crack is.

I don't know why you dodge every right answer given with a diversion, but I suggest you give up the fight. Many people here told you you were wrong, and I agree. 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2022 at 11:01 PM, FlyingAl said:

@Errorists This. Both I and @Oldhoopster brought this up multiple times. You dodged and avoided the question, and it seems you view the Scarface as a "minor" die crack. It's not, when compared to the minor cracks you constantly post about this die was practically falling apart. The value of the Scarface goes up drastically based on how dramatic the crack is.

I don't know why you dodge every right answer given with a diversion, but I suggest you give up the fight. Many people here told you you were wrong, and I agree. 

 

To think a MS coin could bring so much value for a die crack. Who would of thunk it? That's why I collect the proof ones. Much harder to find..

Edited by Errorists
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On 4/13/2022 at 5:25 AM, Errorists said:

To think a MS coin could bring so much value for a die crack.

It is because the die was literally falling apart. It lasted for maybe a hundred more strikes with the crack before the press operators pulled it or it shattered. Your proof die cracks would have lasted for a few thousand more coins, and aren't harder to find at all. 

How do I know this? In the last two days you've posted upwards of three different proof coins with die cracks, and I have never seen any Scarface Morgan ever posted on any coin forum. Rarity?

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On 4/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, FlyingAl said:

It is because the die was literally falling apart. It lasted for maybe a hundred more strikes with the crack before the press operators pulled it or it shattered. Your proof die cracks would have lasted for a few thousand more coins, and aren't harder to find at all. 

How do I know this? In the last two days you've posted upwards of three different proof coins with die cracks, and I have never seen any Scarface Morgan ever posted on any coin forum. Rarity?

Been collecting them for 22 years they are much harder to find. Business strikes are very easy to find.

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But who cares? That’s the problem. Outside of you, who cares about die cracks on proof state quarters? I’ve never heard from ANYONE other than you who cares about them. Are we “pumping” in preparation for “dumping” now? I’ve got a double row 2x2x14 box of proof singles, and I can tell you for certain I’ve never checked any of them for die cracks. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 4/13/2022 at 8:41 AM, VKurtB said:

But who cares? That’s the problem. Outside of you, who cares about die cracks on proof state quarters? I’ve never heard from ANYONE other than you who cares about them. Are we “pumping” in preparation for “dumping” now? I’ve got a double row 2x2x14 box of proof singles, and I can tell you for certain I’ve never checked any of them for die cracks. 

Not always state quarters. Lol.

Screenshot_20220412-162133_Gallery.jpg

Screenshot_20220412-161811_Gallery.jpg

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There are likely a few collectors who are fascinated by the kinds of linear die cracks visible on the OP's posted proofs. But, they are only of passing interest, just as are the multitude of minor cracks visible on Morgan dollars. Only a few extensive cracks and "breaks" (filled cracks) are of wider interest (sorry about the pun), and fewer are of sufficiently dramatic appearance to warrant substantial premiums.

Here is direct information on the VAM 1888-O 1B4 ("Scarface") Morgan dollar variety and its value in near terminal die state (1B4). [ok---"one before the end"]

http://www.vamworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6213&p=53102&hilit=scarface#p53102

1888-O_RonH_VAM-1B4_OBV_08012013.thumb.jpg.0d4f1bbb1e7e159f4d70720c318a0117.jpg

Photo by Heritage Auctions HA.com

Edited by RWB
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On 4/13/2022 at 10:03 AM, VKurtB said:

Again, who else cares?

NGC is the only one who should care. They are getting grading fee and mint error attribution fee to throw a new dime/quarter in a slab and state the obvious…. die crack. 

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On 4/13/2022 at 10:43 AM, Woods020 said:

NGC is the only one who should care. They are getting grading fee and mint error attribution fee to throw a new dime/quarter in a slab and state the obvious…. die crack. 

Actually, you are incorrect. NGC holders coins with named die cracks also..

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

Actually, you are incorrect. NGC holders coins with named die cracks also..

In some cases NGC does acknowledge popular monikers. An example is the 1840-O half dollar with a shattered die known as the "Baseball Reverse," because the pattern of cracks suggests the stitching on a baseball.

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On 4/13/2022 at 11:54 AM, DWLange said:

Actually, you are incorrect. NGC holders coins with named die cracks also..

In some cases NGC does acknowledge popular monikers. An example is the 1840-O half dollar with a shattered die known as the "Baseball Reverse," because the pattern of cracks suggests the stitching on a baseball.

Fasinating.. I was once told by NGC they would do this for me at a cost as long as the moniker wasn't vulgar. I agree with that.. Thanks for that information DW..

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Posted (edited)

NGC no need to change that policy it's great for error collectors and NGC can make more money from more submissions. And so can error collectors.. TYVM.

Edited by Errorists
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NGC still has a way to go to restore its reputation from the fact that the most commonly slabbed coins are American Silver Eagles. That’s already “not a good look”. Gimmicky names for die cracks is a bridge too far. 

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On 4/13/2022 at 2:09 PM, VKurtB said:

NGC still has a way to go to restore its reputation from the fact that the most commonly slabbed coins are American Silver Eagles. That’s already “not a good look”. Gimmicky names for die cracks is a bridge too far. 

More submissions more money for customers and NGC. Good all the way around.

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On 4/13/2022 at 1:23 PM, VKurtB said:

There are quite enough gimmicky things in this hobby already. 

Well said.  The sad part is that this has been going on for decades and shows no intention of stopping.  

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

NGC never initiates cutesy names, but if they're already in common use by the hobby it would be pointless to disregard that fact. It started with the Top-100 VAMs, which all seem to have them.

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On 4/13/2022 at 2:46 PM, DWLange said:

NGC never initiates cutesy names, but if they're already in common use by the hobby it would be pointless to disregard that fact. It started with the Top-100 VAMs, which all seem to have them.

I knew it. I sat down at the Pittsburgh Spring ANA show a couple of years back at a VAM collectors’ presentation. I walked out way before it was over. I couldn’t take it any more. Can’t stand the VAM. I’m more of an EAC and SLCC guy. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 4/13/2022 at 2:49 PM, VKurtB said:

I knew it. I sat down at the Pittsburgh Spring ANA show a couple of years back at a VAM collectors’ presentation. I walked out way before it was over. I couldn’t take it any more. Can’t stand the VAM. I’m more of an EAC and SLCC guy. 

Big deal you walked out..

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On 4/13/2022 at 2:56 PM, Errorists said:

Big deal you walked out..

Yup. Too much pointless hype, too little of substance. These coins literally sat unused in canvas bags for many decades. That’s how important they were. They are that generation’s Sacagawea dollars. As late as the 1960’s people couldn’t get rid of silver dollars fast enough. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 4/13/2022 at 3:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Yup. Too much pointless hype, too little of substance. These coins literally sat unused in canvas bags for many decades. That’s how important they were. They are that generation’s Sacagawea dollars. As late as the 1960’s people couldn’t get rid of silver dollars fast enough. 

Yup now some are worth thousands.

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On 4/13/2022 at 3:15 PM, Errorists said:

Yup now some are worth thousands.

Maybe to somebody. Not to me. I’m not into errors and varieties at all, and I’m not into silver dollars at all. Guess what that means. 

Edited by VKurtB
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