Determining the origin of gold and silver in early US coins 2 2

[zadok]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:08 PM, Oldhoopster said:

It helps to have an interest in geology.  I spent some time during my career working with ceramic raw material suppliers, picked up some basic knowledge, and tried to learn more whenever possible.

Nothing like riding around a talc mine at 7700 ft in Montana surrounded by huge Cat trucks and loaders.

 

 

...u may be frowned upon for using that "Cat" word here....

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:08 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Nothing like riding around a talc mine at 7700 ft in Montana surrounded by huge Cat trucks and loaders.

Anytime I described PMD using references to seismic activity and tectonic plates, I was sent to bed without supper.

My concern here is your exposure to talc which comes in at #1 on Mohs' Scale of Hardness (diamonds being at the other extreme.) I trust you are aware that exposure to talc, talc dust, talcum powder is extremely dangerous. I do hope the workers were properly outfitted with masks particularly at a high elevation where breathing can become labored increasing the risk to one's respiratory system.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:48 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Anytime I described PMD using references to seismic activity and tectonic plates, I was sent to bed without supper.

My concern here is your exposure to talc which comes in at #1 on Mohs' Scale of Hardness (diamonds being at the other extreme.) I trust you are aware that exposure to talc, talc dust, talcum powder is extremely dangerous. I do hope the workers were properly outfitted with masks particularly at a high elevation where breathing can become labored increasing the risk to one's respiratory system.

No issues.  The particle morphology of talc is primarily platy although this deposit is blocky.  The problem is when you have acicular secondary minerals such as tremolite or actinolite (asbestosform minerals).  As long as the acicular particles are greater than 5 microns, they aren't considered an issue.  

The Montana deposit has no asbestosform minerals.

BTW: if you ever spend time in a manufacturing plant, OSHA rules and regulations are everywhere.  You would be fined if you tried to get away with the stuff you do around your house.  You don't need to worry about the talc miners, especially if you have no manufacturing experience.

Hope this clears up the misinformation.

Edit to add:

This thread is turning away from numismatics and I'm sure very few members care about particle morphology of talc. If youre' still concerned, My recommendation is to research geology or mineral collecting sites for more info.  You don't go to mineral forums to ask about coins do you?

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[RWB]

The current situation is that although we have technology to support greatly superior numismatic information, it is not being used and no organization seems to be interested in its use.

Right now we can, with little work:

• Consistently examine and grade bulk coins and bullion tokens.
• Objectively determine the reflectivity of proof and proof-like coins and apply subjective categories.
• Measure the elemental composition of alloys.
• Separate originals from restrikes.
• Quickly identify counterfeits.
• Identify the origin of certain gold or silver used in coinage.
• Quantify design relief of original coin specimens.
• Identify and validate overdates, etc. through accurate surface characteristic determination.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:24 AM, RWB said:

The current situation is that although we have technology to support greatly superior numismatic information, it is not being used and no organization seems to be interested in its use.

Right now we can, with little work:

• Consistently examine and grade bulk coins and bullion tokens.
• Objectively determine the reflectivity of proof and proof-like coins and apply subjective categories.
• Measure the elemental composition of alloys.
• Separate originals from restrikes.
• Quickly identify counterfeits.
• Identify the origin of certain gold or silver used in coinage.
• Quantify design relief of original coin specimens.
• Identify and validate overdates, etc. through accurate surface characteristic determination.

Who's going to pay for it? 

Does the ANS provide research grants? I don't think the ANA does. I believe the CSNS used to provide a small grants for research papers but I'm not sure if they do it anymore

Maybe this is the time for the TPGs or major Auction Houses to step up and fund this research.  Unfortunately, unless they believe the PR has value, it will be chalked up in the loss column and that probably isn't going to happen.

So we're stuck with people like RWB,  Capt Henway,  David Lange, Jack Young and others doing the research and hoping to recoup their costs through book sales and articles.  Gotta be a tough way to make a living.

BTW:  Doing a compositional study of something like the 1848 CAL quarter eagle or early southern gold would be relatively simple assuming you had access to enough samples (yes, I know, big assumption).  XRF on research lab equipment is straightforward and doing a statistical analysis on the data isn't usually complicated.

[zadok]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:51 AM, Oldhoopster said:

Who's going to pay for it? 

Does the ANS provide research grants? I don't think the ANA does. I believe the CSNS used to provide a small grants for research papers but I'm not sure if they do it anymore

Maybe this is the time for the TPGs or major Auction Houses to step up and fund this research.  Unfortunately, unless they believe the PR has value, it will be chalked up in the loss column and that probably isn't going to happen.

So we're stuck with people like RWB,  Capt Henway,  David Lange, Jack Young and others doing the research and hoping to recoup their costs through book sales and articles.  Gotta be a tough way to make a living.

BTW:  Doing a compositional study of something like the 1848 CAL quarter eagle or early southern gold would be relatively simple assuming you had access to enough samples (yes, I know, big assumption).  XRF on research lab equipment is straightforward and doing a statistical analysis on the data isn't usually complicated.

...all true, but in this specific instance, does anyone really care where the ore came from to produce said coin?...certainly not enuf to pay to find out...the exception being, possibly the aforementioned CAL $2.5s for verification purposes...it would be like me wanting to know if the rubber in my front left tire came from india, malaysia, fenntucky's doughnuts or that funny looking tree in hoghead's back yard...no one or any company is going to pony up the money for a determination that generates no revenue or beneficial result...now if said tests could prove if America's first silver half dimes came from Ben's or Martha's silver platter n candlesticks then u just mite have a market, slim but a market....

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:38 PM, zadok said:

...all true, but in this specific instance, does anyone really care where the ore came from to produce said coin?...certainly not enuf to pay to find out...the exception being, possibly the aforementioned CAL $2.5s for verification purposes...it would be like me wanting to know if the rubber in my front left tire came from india, malaysia, fenntucky's doughnuts or that funny looking tree in hoghead's back yard...no one or any company is going to pony up the money for a determination that generates no revenue or beneficial result...now if said tests could prove if America's first silver half dimes came from Ben's or Martha's silver platter n candlesticks then u just mite have a market, slim but a market....

Exactly

Personally, I would be very interested in reading about the ore source of a CAL quarter eagle, but that's me.  I'm sure there are many (most?) In the hobby that couldn't care less about this minutiae.  

So it comes down to what value does a company or organization get from funding this research?  Short of PR, the answer is not much.  That's why it isnt being done.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:01 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Exactly

Personally, I would be very interested in reading about the ore source of a CAL quarter eagle, but that's me.  I'm sure there are many (most?) In the hobby that couldn't care less about this minutiae.  

So it comes down to what value does a company or organization get from funding this research?  Short of PR, the answer is not much.  That's why it isnt being done.

He who insists that organizations need to do things that they presently do not do, for the benefit or curiosity of the insistor, or a few brethren, is a thief of resources - and frankly, a troll. 

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:03 PM, VKurtB said:

He who insists that organizations need to do things that they presently do not do, for the benefit or curiosity of the insistor, or a few brethren, is a thief of resources - and frankly, a troll. 

Hey V. Kurt. You may want to get out your glasses and reread my posts (and the others) regarding numismatic research.  Nobody INSISTED organizations fund this research.  On the contrary, I think the posts did an excellent job of explaining why we DO NOT have funding for this type of research.  Maybe you should take the time to read and comprehend the posts before responding.

I'm sorry if you believe those of us who feel that the advancement of knowledge are trolls.  I have to admit that is one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen on this forum.  But I  guess I shouldn't expect anything less from an avowed Luddite.  Long live the good old days!

[RWB]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:51 AM, Oldhoopster said:

Maybe this is the time for the TPGs or major Auction Houses to step up and fund this research.  Unfortunately, unless they believe the PR has value, it will be chalked up in the loss column and that probably isn't going to happen.

The market value change of separating originals from restrikes could be substantial, but any implementation must be consistent over a period of years, and have access to a significant number of specimens. Only the two major TPGs have this capability. Auction companies and others are impeded by plastic slabs -- just like edge varieties on SG gold coins.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:24 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Hey V. Kurt. You may want to get out your glasses and reread my posts (and the others) regarding numismatic research.  Nobody INSISTED organizations fund this research.  On the contrary, I think the posts did an excellent job of explaining why we DO NOT have funding for this type of research.  Maybe you should take the time to read and comprehend the posts before responding.

I'm sorry if you believe those of us who feel that the advancement of knowledge are trolls.  I have to admit that is one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen on this forum.  But I  guess I shouldn't expect anything less from an avowed Luddite.  Long live the good old days!

It wasn’t YOU to whom I was referring. It was the “gentleman” (as if…) who has a LENGTHY record, right here in this board, of insisting that SEVERAL organizations should be doing various things that are far beyond their mandates and purpose. Take a wild guess. I AGREE with what you typed. This, in particular, is very sound:

”So it comes down to what value does a company or organization get from funding this research?  Short of PR, the answer is not much.  That's why it isnt being done.”

YOU “get it”. The other fellow, not s’much. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

Roger seems to think the TPGS are some kind of locus of evil that needs to be atoned for according to his personal preferences. He is king and lord in his fiefdom. 

[FlyingAl]

I think the only possible way to persuade the TPGS to adopt this is perhaps better counterfeit detection. I doubt this would ever be a selling point, so I think the idea is dead in the water unless someone funds the TPGS to do it for them, likely at a hefty sum. 

[zadok]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:24 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Hey V. Kurt. You may want to get out your glasses and reread my posts (and the others) regarding numismatic research.  Nobody INSISTED organizations fund this research.  On the contrary, I think the posts did an excellent job of explaining why we DO NOT have funding for this type of research.  Maybe you should take the time to read and comprehend the posts before responding.

I'm sorry if you believe those of us who feel that the advancement of knowledge are trolls.  I have to admit that is one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen on this forum.  But I  guess I shouldn't expect anything less from an avowed Luddite.  Long live the good old days!

...he wasnt talking bout u....

[VKurtB]

This field of study already exists and is being done, but not here in this country. Its name is paleometallurgy and papers on studies of ancient and medieval coins are being presented at the XVI International Numismatic Congress in Warsaw, Poland in September. Apparently SOMEONE is funding the research somewhere. Maybe our issues here don’t interest those with da Benjamins to throw at the study. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:51 AM, Oldhoopster said:

So we're stuck with people like RWB,  Capt Henway,  David Lange, Jack Young and others doing the research and hoping to recoup their costs through book sales and articles.  Gotta be a tough way to make a living.

You would have thought that one of the deep-pocketed coin collectors over the last 40 years would have set up a foundation to fund such research and also award prize money at the big conventions and trade shows (like FUN).

Good way to also keep your name alive in perpetuity. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:37 PM, VKurtB said:

Roger seems to think the TPGS are some kind of locus of evil that needs to be atoned for according to his personal preferences. He is king and lord in his fiefdom. 

No, you and he just have a difference of opinion, as do many of us with one another.

We can respect our differences and still learn from one another. 

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:09 PM, VKurtB said:

This field of study already exists and is being done, but not here in this country. Its name is paleometallurgy and papers on studies of ancient and medieval coins are being presented at the XVI International Numismatic Congress in Warsaw, Poland in September. Apparently SOMEONE is funding the research somewhere. Maybe our issues here don’t interest those with da Benjamins to throw at the study. 

I've read a few papers regarding roman denarii composition and the development of surface silvering and found them interesting but they bring up a lot more questions.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You would have thought that one of the deep-pocketed coin collectors over the last 40 years would have set up a foundation to fund such research and also aware prize money at the big conventions and trade shows (like FUN).

Good way to also keep your name alive in perpetuity. 

I thought  the same thing, hence my comment about the possibility of a TPG or auction house sponsoring something like this (to clarify with @RWB, my comment was for them to sponsor the research, not do the actual work.  Lots of starving researchers who will work for grant money).  But they are the ones who decide what areas to best utilize their resources.

 

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:52 PM, VKurtB said:

It wasn’t YOU to whom I was referring. It was the “gentleman” (as if…) who has a LENGTHY record, right here in this board, of insisting that SEVERAL organizations should be doing various things that are far beyond their mandates and purpose. Take a wild guess. I AGREE with what you typed. This, in particular, is very sound:

”So it comes down to what value does a company or organization get from funding this research?  Short of PR, the answer is not much.  That's why it isnt being done.”

YOU “get it”. The other fellow, not s’much. 

@VKurtB I  apologize for going off the rails with my post.  It was not warrented.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:29 PM, Oldhoopster said:

@VKurtB I  apologize for going off the rails with my post.  It was not warrented.

It’s all good. No worries.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You would have thought that one of the deep-pocketed coin collectors over the last 40 years would have set up a foundation to fund such research and also award prize money at the big conventions and trade shows (like FUN).

Good way to also keep your name alive in perpetuity. 

[If this is your quaint way of reminding me about the $half-billion+ Mega drawing tonite, not to worry. I gotcha!]   🐓 

[RWB]

Organizations and individuals that benefit from the hobby and the work of others, should accept responsibility for giving back by whatever means they can.

As to the practicalities of technological application to numismatics, the only places with access to a reasonably large flow of measurable coins are PCGS and NGC. Individually, neither is likely to be sufficient. As for sponsoring the cost of such work, that's an open question. Good equipment would cost between $50 and $75k for each facility, and employee time for measurements and data recording wold have to come from experience following training and process flow analysis. (There is no means for predicting when certain coins of interest will show up at either company, so the work would have to be as-needed for an employee otherwise engaged.)

Having never understood VKurtB's antagonism toward historical research and empirical measurement, I defer to others to figure him out.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:57 PM, RWB said:

Having never understood VKurtB's antagonism toward historical research and empirical measurement, I defer to others to figure him out.

If you concede Penny is merely a harmless, domesticated cat with no feral proclivities, I will gladly provide you with a diagnosis.  😉  

[RWB]

Indoor cats can be comforting pets. Outside, all should be destroyed....just like any other invasive and harmful species. Think Japanese beetles, "frankenfish," pythons in Florida, on and on....

[Henri Charriere]

On reflection, portraying him in the most favorable light, I find him to be an eternal enigma. Once he fashions an approach and defines the dynamic sought, you either fall in (like yours truly) or the promised for heavy artillery arrives. Those with whom he jousts knows what they are getting into.  I, for example, am insuffiently equipped to do battle on a level playing people. To make matters worse, Moderation indubitably keeps me on a short lease. It may not seem like that to the average observer without an agenda, but many more people have placed their faith in me and expect return on their investments.  I cannot, in good conscience, disappoint them.  🤔 

[FlyingAl]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:08 PM, RWB said:

Indoor cats can be comforting pets. Outside, all should be destroyed....just like any other invasive and harmful species. Think Japanese beetles, "frankenfish," pythons in Florida, on and on....

How do you feel about wolves? I think I have a hunch here.... 

[zadok]

On 7/20/2022 at 12:04 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

On reflection, portraying him in the most favorable light, I find him to be an eternal enigma. Once he fashions an approach and defines the dynamic sought, you either fall in (like yours truly) or the promised for heavy artillery arrives. Those with whom he jousts knows what they are getting into.  I, for example, am insuffiently equipped to do battle on a level playing people. To make matters worse, Moderation indubitably keeps me on a short lease. It may not seem like that to the average observer without an agenda, but many more people have placed their faith in me and expect return on their investments.  I cannot, in good conscience, disappoint them.  🤔 

...i was thinking more of a write off....

[RWB]

On 7/20/2022 at 12:06 AM, FlyingAl said:

How do you feel about wolves? I think I have a hunch here.... 

Tasty.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:57 PM, RWB said:

Organizations and individuals that benefit from the hobby and the work of others, should accept responsibility for giving back by whatever means they can.

As to the practicalities of technological application to numismatics, the only places with access to a reasonably large flow of measurable coins are PCGS and NGC. Individually, neither is likely to be sufficient. As for sponsoring the cost of such work, that's an open question. Good equipment would cost between $50 and $75k for each facility, and employee time for measurements and data recording wold have to come from experience following training and process flow analysis. (There is no means for predicting when certain coins of interest will show up at either company, so the work would have to be as-needed for an employee otherwise engaged.)

Having never understood VKurtB's antagonism toward historical research and empirical measurement, I defer to others to figure him out.

My antagonism, sir, (as if…), is to people who claim to know better about what private entities should apply their resources to than those entities themselves do. Your post sounds like one written by a committed Marxist. Want somebody to fund this work? Try whoever funded the work being presented in Warsaw or start a Go Fund Me. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by VKurtB