PCI Coins
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50 posts in this topic

On 3/30/2022 at 1:16 PM, coastaljerseyguy said:

Unless there was a different composition with the very early PCI holders, I'm thinking the coins were toned prior to slabbing, whether AT or NT.  I've had 2 PCI gold slabs and they have not changed in 15+ years. I can see some rim toning evolving, but not overall coin toning.  Maybe I'm wrong.

From what I know the gold label holders are not known for the toning the coins the way the early green holders are.   However, as with most slabbed coins, if you do not store them properly any number of outcomes are possible.   While many blame the labels as having a high sulfur content (or whatever the excuse) the real culprit is improper storage, high humidity and heat are the real cause of much of the toning from these early holders.    I am not doubting that the label is a contributing factor but you need something like heat and humidity to activate whatever is in the label.

I know that the environment has more to do with toning than anything else because I have many of these types of early holders, PCI, ANACS and others.   Those coins that I have owned for ten or twenty years have not changed much if at all in almost every case.   I live in a dry arid climate and store my coins in a SDB in Intercept shield boxes with desiccant packs in the box, even the raw loose silver eagles have gained just a tiny bit of rim tone in all those years.   Yet I have seen many people over the years on forums who have shown a newp and then just a couple of years later they then show that same coin off with tons of tarnish on it.   They are not storing their coins properly, either by design or something else.

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On 3/30/2022 at 9:50 AM, Alex in PA. said:

PCI was one of the favorites of the 'Shake & Bake' artists of early eBay.

Still are. I see guys talking about using them to tone coins on Facebook all the time. They think it’s perfect fine since it was a graded slab they are putting them in and it magically tones the coin. 

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On 3/30/2022 at 3:26 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve heard that often, but I SEE it in action almost never. This market DOES buy the holder. 

I’ll have to agree, many buy the holder not the coin.  I had a particular PCI graded coin, I bought it for $60, had a buyer at $5K if it crossed at PCGS, it crossed, but it lost the designator likely due to the extreme toning.  

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On 4/1/2022 at 3:02 PM, casman said:

I’ll have to agree, many buy the holder not the coin.  I had a particular PCI graded coin, I bought it for $60, had a buyer at $5K if it crossed at PCGS, it crossed, but it lost the designator likely due to the extreme toning.  

What is a designator?

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On 4/1/2022 at 3:02 PM, casman said:

I’ll have to agree, many buy the holder not the coin.  I had a particular PCI graded coin, I bought it for $60, had a buyer at $5K if it crossed at PCGS, it crossed, but it lost the designator likely due to the extreme toning.  

Yeah, I have a 1955 nickel in an old ANACS small slab at PF67CAM. It doesn’t even look like a proof at all any more, much less a cameo. Completely ruined coin. 

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On 3/30/2022 at 4:47 PM, Coinbuf said:

From what I know the gold label holders are not known for the toning the coins the way the early green holders are.   However, as with most slabbed coins, if you do not store them properly any number of outcomes are possible.   While many blame the labels as having a high sulfur content (or whatever the excuse) the real culprit is improper storage, high humidity and heat are the real cause of much of the toning from these early holders.    I am not doubting that the label is a contributing factor but you need something like heat and humidity to activate whatever is in the label.

I know that the environment has more to do with toning than anything else because I have many of these types of early holders, PCI, ANACS and others.   Those coins that I have owned for ten or twenty years have not changed much if at all in almost every case.   I live in a dry arid climate and store my coins in a SDB in Intercept shield boxes with desiccant packs in the box, even the raw loose silver eagles have gained just a tiny bit of rim tone in all those years.   Yet I have seen many people over the years on forums who have shown a newp and then just a couple of years later they then show that same coin off with tons of tarnish on it.   They are not storing their coins properly, either by design or something else.

Coinbuf, I simply do not agree. I’ve seen way too many ruined coins in ANACS small slabs (non-silver) and way too many silver coins horribly toned by them. 

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On 4/2/2022 at 8:32 AM, VKurtB said:

Coinbuf, I simply do not agree. I’ve seen way too many ruined coins in ANACS small slabs (non-silver) and way too many silver coins horribly toned by them. 

Define ruined.

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On 4/2/2022 at 5:18 PM, Coinbuf said:

Define ruined.

Toning rushing headlong to black. And it’s not happening to any other firm’s slabs, just ANACS small slabs. I don’t own any PCI or basement slabs except for one NNC, and that one is perfectly fine. All my small ANACS are from the Teletrade phone auction era. Mid nineties. 

Edited by VKurtB
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I would say that the biggest issue is improper storage not the label.   Do you have any ANACS slabs as old as these?   Both of these are the first slabs used by ANACS after the photocerts  from early 1989 to mid 1990 both in my collection.   Is there some tone, yes with the 1879 having the most of the two, however I would not say that either of these are ruined.

Does the label have an effect, yes, but far more important is the storage methods that the collectors and dealers use for coins.   Coins stored properly will not be ruined by the holder or label, coins stored in a way to induce toning from the label may be ruined.

1879sds-obv3.jpg

1879sds-rev3.jpg

1882sdo-obv.jpg

1882sdo-rev.jpg

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On 4/2/2022 at 7:05 PM, Coinbuf said:

I would say that the biggest issue is improper storage not the label.   Do you have any ANACS slabs as old as these?   Both of these are the first slabs used by ANACS after the photocerts  from early 1989 to mid 1990 both in my collection.   Is there some tone, yes with the 1879 having the most of the two, however I would not say that either of these are ruined.

Does the label have an effect, yes, but far more important is the storage methods that the collectors and dealers use for coins.   Coins stored properly will not be ruined by the holder or label, coins stored in a way to induce toning from the label may be ruined.

1879sds-obv3.jpg

1879sds-rev3.jpg

1882sdo-obv.jpg

1882sdo-rev.jpg

I do not have any of that era. All mine are a year or four newer than that. But those inserts (not the label, the white soft plastic) of that time (Amos, not ANA) destroy coins. It’s not even up for debate - it IS the insert in those slabs. My NGC’s and P-people don’t show it and they are contemporaries, and stored side by side.  

Edited by VKurtB
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On 4/3/2022 at 12:55 PM, VKurtB said:

I do not have any of that era. All mine are a year or four newer than that. But those inserts (not the label, the white soft plastic) of that time (Amos, not ANA) destroy coins. It’s not even up for debate - it IS the insert in those slabs. My NGC’s and P-people don’t show it and they are contemporaries, and stored side by side.  

I'm sorry to inform you that you are not correct again.   Here is another from my collection, this is ANACS gen 4 used from 91 to 96 after Amos Press bought ANACS in 1990ish.   Once again this coin has some slight edge tone but far from destroyed, I took this photo about a year ago.   You just cannot use a broad brush and apply it as you are, I am not doubting that you have noticed some changes to your ANACS holdered coins.   What I do not believe for a second is that the holder/label is the single culprit.   Unless you yourself bought that coin right off the press, had it hermetically sealed and submitted it yourself to ANACS you have no idea what substances may have been on the coin at the time of slabbing.   There are many factors in how coins tone and the holder/label is just a small part of that, you should know better than to spread this type of misinformation as you constantly rail against the misinformation that is so prevalent in numismatics.

And I have to ask, if you feel that your coins are being ruined by the ANACS holder why have you not done something about removing those coins for those holders?

 

1883sdo-obv2.jpg

1883sdo-rev2.jpg

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What can I do? They’re already garbage. About half I submitted, and about half are Teletrade auction coins. ALL, as in absolutely every one, has unacceptable levels of toning. By the way, the ones you show above this post are ALSO unacceptable to me, but not as bad as mine. I have lived exclusively in high humidity locales, and none of my NGC or PCGS coins are similarly affected. Every TPGS jealously guards the intellectual property of their materials, and I must conclude each is different. My former 1955 PF67CAM nickel looks like it has been soaked in Mississippi River silt and allowed to dry in it. 

Edited by VKurtB
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Well how about showing us these "ruined" coins, my bet is that what you have is far from ruined to most collectors.

And as for "What can I do", perhaps you could use that magic elixir you have touted as able to cure a coin's toning issues but is safer than the dip jar according to you.   If you really think the coins you own are truly ruined then cracking them out and dipping them will not have any substantial impact, correct?

Edited by Coinbuf
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On 4/2/2022 at 8:05 PM, Coinbuf said:

Do you have any ANACS slabs as old as these?

Used to collect them but sold most years ago.  I think all were silver and toned in one way or another.  

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On 4/5/2022 at 2:18 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Used to collect them but sold most years ago.  I think all were silver and toned in one way or another.  

This. And I'll just bet not attractively toned either.

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On 4/4/2022 at 10:26 PM, Coinbuf said:

Well how about showing us these "ruined" coins, my bet is that what you have is far from ruined to most collectors.

And as for "What can I do", perhaps you could use that magic elixir you have touted as able to cure a coin's toning issues but is safer than the dip jar according to you.   If you really think the coins you own are truly ruined then cracking them out and dipping them will not have any substantial impact, correct?

Yep, and I will eventually get around to dipping them. The stuff goes bad so I need to save up a bunch.

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My PCI coin referenced above was the purple label signature series signed by Tomaska.  I could visually see the residual CAM in the areas that were not toned.  

Edited by casman
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