How to replace a printed book index? 1 1

[RWB]

I've long felt that a printed index in a book was both wasteful and ineffective. The purpose was to aid readers in finding a subject or name each time it appeared in the volume. Several years ago I scrapped building printed indices and included a free CD with fully searchable text and images. This worked well until people insisted on using hand-held toy telephones that have no CD option and don't even accept inexpensive external memory devices. One obvious option is to post the book file on the web and allow book buyers to download a copy to their toys. But, that creates a 24/7 infrastructure cost that cannot be supported by book sales - or anything else.

So, although I've asked before, what do members think is the best way to provide a free index to a numismatic book?

Edited March 11, 2022 by RWB

[Conder101]

Stick with the CD's.  The people with the toys can upload the CD to their own cloud account using a real computer and then either access it with their toy or download it from their cloud account to their toy.

[GoldFinger1969]

Since you included the FMTM cover.....I would find an index to basic and beginner concepts of a mint:  what is a planchet....how gold/silver get turned into coins....the processes that raw ore goes through before becoming a coin....striking quality vs. speed....what is a die...what is a hub.....what is a collar....etc etc etc.

As you and I have discussed, FMTM is a much harder book to read than the Saints book (I also have more interest in Saints than the minting process so the former was an easier read for me personally), though if there was a section on Saint striking I probably need to re-hit that section.  But I got alot more out of the Saints book than FMTM for all the reasons we've discussed....so....re-reading each will improve my recollection of details in the Saints book....but give me a broad overview of concepts in FMTM.

And of course...the Saint book reads easy with the annual and special chapters.  FMTM is so detailed an index (in the book or on CD) helps to find specific items.

Edited March 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Woods020]

Out of curiosity are you planning on putting any of your future works in an electronic format? My daughter is in her first year of college and I think we have bought two physical books in total so far. Everything is electronic it seems. I read a lot and do most of my “fun” reading on my iPad. Reference books is where I prefer a physical book, but I need to start adjusting it seems. With ebooks it’s obviously a moot point and everything is easily searchable. 
 

I do feel for you. You are writing primarily for an aged audience who want things as traditional as possible when the world is growing in use of technology around them. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:06 AM, Woods020 said:

Out of curiosity are you planning on putting any of your future works in an electronic format? My daughter is in her first year of college and I think we have bought two physical books in total so far. Everything is electronic it seems. I read a lot and do most of my “fun” reading on my iPad. Reference books is where I prefer a physical book, but I need to start adjusting it seems. With ebooks it’s obviously a moot point and everything is easily searchable. I do feel for you. You are writing primarily for an aged audience who want things as traditional as possible when the world is growing in use of technology around them. 

I don't think that is up to Roger unless he presses the issue.

I do know that I reached out to HA to ask about an electronic or PDF format for the Saints book -- no luck.  Ditto for most of our classic books that aren't revised regularly.  Maybe the Red Book and a few others are, but the ones with really indispensable information are print-only for the most part.

[RWB]

The illustration is of the CD. The bright colors were chosen to discourage anyone from trying to sell the CD separately.

[RWB]

Print is the only time-stable medium.

I have 2 books in digital-only format. Annual Assay Commission – United States Mint, 1800-1943 is on 4 DVDs, and Silver Dollars Struck Under the Pittman Act of 1918 is on a CD. Sales have been very limited compared to print books. These were published 12 and 11 years ago, respectively, and the formats are considered obsolete by some.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:08 AM, RWB said:

Print is the only time-stable medium.  I have 2 books in digital-only format. Annual Assay Commission – United States Mint, 1800-1943 is on 4 DVDs, and Silver Dollars Struck Under the Pittman Act of 1918 is on a CD. Sales have been very limited compared to print books. These were published 12 and 11 years ago, respectively, and the formats are considered obsolete by some.

Formats may be obsolete, but I'll bet there still lots of good information in those books.

That's why I don't mind looking at old auciton catalogs or a book that hasn't been updated in years or decades.....in many cases, the commentaries about coins are still valid in the present.

[RWB]

Numismatics is very slow to change. The internet has made change more difficult. Anyone can copy and paste from one obsolete reference to something "new" in 3-clicks of a tailless mouse, thus perpetuating false information.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:22 AM, RWB said:

Numismatics is very slow to change. The internet has made change more difficult. Anyone can copy and paste from one obsolete reference to something "new" in 3-clicks of a tailless mouse, thus perpetuating false information.

Agreed...but for the coins I look at most in-depth (Saints, Morgans, etc.) the commentaries -- which are understood to be a mix of opinion and facts -- are part of the story-telling I love.  Even if something is not 100% factually true -- if it is clearly labeled as opinion or conjecture -- it can be valuable.

Just have to separate them and be clear what is what. 

 

[Just Bob]

I am behind the times, I guess. I prefer my index in the back of the book.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:22 AM, RWB said:

Numismatics is very slow to change. The internet has made change more difficult. Anyone can copy and paste from one obsolete reference to something "new" in 3-clicks of a tailless mouse, thus perpetuating false information.

But true information also spreads quickly and the nature of coin forums usually lends to bad information being forced out.

[RWB]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But true information also spreads quickly and the nature of coin forums usually lends to bad information being forced out.

Well, I don't know.....over the past 20 years it seems that "bad information pushes out good information." At the least, that's been my personal experience with almost everything I've researched and published: the false junk proliferates; possibly because it's so easy, cheap, and superficial.

[RWB]

On 3/13/2022 at 11:58 PM, Just Bob said:

I am behind the times, I guess. I prefer my index in the back of the book.

Bob, I used to feel that way too...and an internal index is certainly more convenient than one that has to be accessed separately from the book. Yet, the problem is index size - literally page count. I made a digital index for an early version of From Mint to Mint with the intent to have it printed in the back of the book. But after cranking away for a while, the computer-generated index was a quarter the length of the book: about 100+ pages of 9pt type. So I switched to a full-text CD.

(Had I used a printed index for the final 550 page book, it would have been well over 700 pages.

Edited March 14, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:04 PM, RWB said:

Well, I don't know.....over the past 20 years it seems that "bad information pushes out good information." At the least, that's been my personal experience with almost everything I've researched and published: the false junk proliferates; possibly because it's so easy, cheap, and superficial.

At least on the forums with moderators, compared to Ebay/Etsy/Craigslist/Reddit....I see light-years better information.

[RWB]

True -- but the moderators don't make accuracy corrections....these sites just have better informed users. Over the internet the situation is supportive of ignorance and mediocrity.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:09 PM, RWB said:

Bob, I used to feel that way too...and an internal index is certainly more convenient than one that has to be accessed separately from the book. Yet, the problem is index size - literally page count. I made a digital index for an early version of From Mint to Mint with the intent to have it printed in the back of the book. But after cranking away for a while, the computer-generated index was a quarter the length of the book: about 100+ pages of 9pt type. So I switched to a full-text CD. (Had I used a printed index for the final 550 page book, it would have been well over 700 pages.

Wait a second....an Index is supposed to help you find KEY chapters or topics.  It should be a fraction of the book size.  I've never seen an index in the back of the book that is more than 10% of the book pages.

KEY names...KEY topics...maybe an obscure or peculiar fact highlighted.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:16 PM, RWB said:

True -- but the moderators don't make accuracy corrections....these sites just have better informed users. Over the internet the situation is supportive of ignorance and mediocrity.

I don't think I would have the interest in coins and/or Saints that I have today without all the information I have gathered from the internet, including message forums.

Also, WRONG information on a Saint or coin I can live with...it's GROSS FRAUD that poisons the well.

[RWB]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:42 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wait a second....an Index is supposed to help you find KEY chapters or topics.  It should be a fraction of the book size.  I've never seen an index in the back of the book that is more than 10% of the book pages.

KEY names...KEY topics...maybe an obscure or peculiar fact highlighted.

Yep. And some books have a lot of key names and topics, which makes a paper index bulky and costly to use.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:53 PM, RWB said:

Yep. And some books have a lot of key names and topics, which makes a paper index bulky and costly to use.

FMTM index would be how big ?  You might be focusing too much on minutae. 

[GoldFinger1969]

FMTM has a Bibliography of 15 pages, 10 for the Saints book.  Both very readable and useful.

 

 

[RWB]

To me, and index exists to help readers find subjects, events, people and places of interest in the book. The most efficient way to accomplish that is usually preferred. I used  searchable CD because that seemed the most efficient. I would have done the same for the DE book.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/14/2022 at 4:48 PM, RWB said:

To me, and index exists to help readers find subjects, events, people and places of interest in the book. The most efficient way to accomplish that is usually preferred. I used  searchable CD because that seemed the most efficient. I would have done the same for the DE book.

That FIND function for a PDF is very useful (when it works ! ). 

Maybe someone can show us just the index for "A" in FMTM and we can extrapolate that a complete index would be 25x as much.  I'm curious as to why a printed one would be so long (I have FMTM but don't know where I put the CD if I got one).

[RWB]

Depends on the parameters and number of instances. Digital also supports any combination of words or phrases -- far greater options than any print version. A really good PDF search engine also supports fuzzy searches, Boolean, context, and concatenated among others.

[VKurtB]

On 3/14/2022 at 11:04 AM, RWB said:

Well, I don't know.....over the past 20 years it seems that "bad information pushes out good information." At the least, that's been my personal experience with almost everything I've researched and published: the false junk proliferates; possibly because it's so easy, cheap, and superficial.

Agreed. No question in my mind. Sounds like most of my girlfriends in my younger years - easy, cheap, and superficial. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/14/2022 at 7:22 PM, VKurtB said:

Agreed. No question in my mind. Sounds like most of my girlfriends in my younger years - easy, cheap, and superficial. 

And as with coins.....we need to ask....".....are they real....and are they spectacular ??"  

Edited March 15, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[gmarguli]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:45 PM, RWB said:

 This worked well until people insisted on using hand-held toy telephones that have no CD option and don't even accept inexpensive external memory devices.

Hate to break it to you, but many new computers don't come with a CD or DVD drive. It's old tech. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, gmarguli said:

Hate to break it to you, but many new computers don't come with a CD or DVD drive. It's old tech. 

Yup, have gone the way of the VCR.  My PC purchased last year doesn't have one which means I have to use downloads and stream.

[RWB]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, gmarguli said:

Hate to break it to you, but many new computers don't come with a CD or DVD drive. It's old tech. 

The overhead cost of maintaining on-demand availability is high and not sustainable -- especially for hobby books guaranteed to lose money.

The data technology has not changed - the means of transmitting it has. Plus, increasing reliance of the internet or expensive "cloud" storage further threatens the permanence and integrity of data/books/ideas.

Edited March 15, 2022 by RWB

[FlyingAl]

Perhaps NGC would let you start a pinned thread with PDF indexes contained in the first post. The books would then have link to the thread. Those who want to use the index just have to type in the URL and download. I think this solves all of your issues?

The tricky part is getting NGC to agree. I honestly doubt the viability of this option.