Grading Ultra fine DDO/DDR Pennies. MS69 1997-D DDO? Is that possible? 2 2

[Joseph Franklin]

These two coins are the finest in condition I have in my line of Lincoln Doubled Die pennies. Starting from 1927-2000, the year I graduated high school and going off to join the Army Infantry. Here are 2 undocumented DDO/DDR's 1993-D & 1997-D. Here are my questions.

1. Because the coin was struck twice and in doing so caused "damage" or altered the appearance from the original state, but the current state of the "new coin" being struck again is actually causing the damage, or new appearance/die gouges, scratches, etc. Do they lower the grading?

2. Because it is a DDO/DDR and unique and will cause these changes do they only play a part identifying a true DDO DDR?

[J P M]

Hi Joe, I think we should start out a little slower. I would not want you to be spending good money sending out coins that will come back in body bags. Where do you see a DDO or a DDR

[Coinbuf]

From what I have seen and read in your threads so far, I do not think you have an accurate understanding of what true die doubling is vs simple mechanical or strike doubling.   This comment in particular is very telling: "And after 20 years of grandma giving me pennies that 90% are Doubled Died".   I'm assuming you meant to say from a Doubled Die, however I do not believe for a second that anyone has that many coins from a true doubled die.   I think you watched a few videos on youtube and used that misinformation to convince yourself into thinking that you have all these very rare coins, when in reality you have coins with the worthless form of doubling known as strike doubling or mechanical doubling.   Think about it, coins from a true doubled die are rare yet you claim to have hundreds or more all that exhibit doubling on both sides of the coin, how is it that you have so much of something so rare.   

I'm not saying this to be mean or dump on you but simply because what you have been saying is not just improbable, it is impossible.   What I think is going to happen is that you have and will spend a lot of money on grading very common coins, what we refer to as "pocket change" and be out a lot of money.   I hate to see that happen to anyone so I urge you to stop before you spend anymore money and have any coins you want to submit reviewed by a competent coin dealer prior to sending more coins out.

[Joseph Franklin]

Lol...Roger that. And no other coins will leaving. I'm humbled. In this era of coins the DDO&R are tightly fit together. The stacking is tight or "the spread" next to ontop of each other. (The art of post editing helps in this field of picture story telling). The 1997 shows great spreading. That isn't shadow in the serif letting. The 1993 the angle and brightness is up to high to get that one. But all these coins follow right along with variety Vista's book on doubled dies. Especially with these 2 coins. The lamentation missing behind the first "T" in truth for both coins... Then when you have a magnifying glass or loop and slightly tilt the coin you see the breaks and build up of the 2nd strike. I pretty much have 200+ coins all doubled die and DDR so I have plenty of reference material on hand if I am wondering about it being a DDO. The top and bottom of the lettering on reverse is bubbles at the top and that bubbling of you follow it around the whole coin; which is just another indicator of a DDR....

I already know they are both what I claim, but I'd be happy to give more pics to justify my question.

I'll take better ones for the sake of brevity.

[RWB]

On 3/10/2022 at 2:34 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

Because the coin was struck twice

The posted coins show no sign of being struck twice.

Also, there's no evidence of the obverse or reverse die having been doubled in manufacture -- at least that I can see in the photos.

Both seem like nice ordinary cents with a few surface marks as commonly seen, plus the rim damage at 11 o'clock on the first one.

Edited March 10, 2022 by RWB

[RWB]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:06 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

Lol...Roger that. And no other coins will leaving. I'm humbled. In this era of coins the DDO&R are tightly fit together. The stacking is tight or "the spread" next to ontop of each other. (The art of post editing helps in this field of picture story telling). The 1997 shows great spreading. That isn't shadow in the serif letting. The 1993 the angle and brightness is up to high to get that one. But all these coins follow right along with variety Vista's book on doubled dies. Especially with these 2 coins. The lamentation missing behind the first "T" in truth for both coins... Then when you have a magnifying glass or loop and slightly tilt the coin you see the breaks and build up of the 2nd strike. I pretty much have 200+ coins all doubled die and DDR so I have plenty of reference material on hand if I am wondering about it being a DDO. The top and bottom of the lettering on reverse is bubbles at the top and that bubbling of you follow it around the whole coin; which is just another indicator of a DDR....

I already know they are both what I claim, but I'd be happy to give more pics to justify my question.

I'll take better ones for the sake of brevity.

Having just read the above, it is apparent you need to "start over" in learning about coins and how they are manufactured. Could someone please point the OP to the web site that had a description and photos of minting? (It was posted to a thread about a week ago....)

PS: It's "lamination" not "lamentation" although your description makes me want to cry....

Here's the link provided by JustBob: Click Me [Wexler's Die Varieties, How Coins Are Made.]

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by RWB

[Joseph Franklin]

Lol...Roger that. And no other coins will leaving. I'm humbled. In this era of coins the DDO&R are tightly fit together. The stacking is tight or "the spread" next to ontop of each other. (The art of post editing helps in this field of picture story telling). The 1997 shows great spreading. That isn't shadow in the serif letting. The 1993 the angle and brightness is up to high to get that one. But all these coins follow right along with variety Vista's book on doubled dies. Especially with these 2 coins. The lamentation missing behind the first "T" in truth for both coins... Then when you have a magnifying glass or loop and slightly tilt the coin you see the breaks and build up of the 2nd strike. I pretty much have 200+ coins all doubled die and DDR so I have plenty of reference material on hand if I am wondering about it being a DDO. The top and bottom of the lettering on reverse is bubbles at the top and that bubbling of you follow it around the whole coin; which is just another indicator of a DDR....

I already know they are both what I claim, but I'd be happy to give more pics to justify my question.

I'll take better ones for the sake of brevity

[J P M]

Well Joe, I can say we have had new members in the past that talk fast and are set in their mind that their way is the best ? I can think of one in particular that this reminds me of someone everyone tried to help. His name was Slick.. He like you was determined that his findings were the gospel. There are a lot of knowledgeable members here who will help you out but you may have to hear things you don't want to. If you take to heart there comments it may help you gain some valuable insight to true numismatics.   

[Greenstang]

I’m going to jump in on this although I was just going to leave it.

What you have is common Machine Doubling, not a Doubled Die. Suggest you study on what a true DD looks like. You have been told by some very knowledgeable people it is Machine Doubling. If you still insist you are correct, suggest you send just one off to be graded and find out for yourself. This way you won’t be wasting too much money. 

[Joseph Franklin]

Please excuse my sentences and missing words. Get blown through a brick wall by a carbomb, a 2 IEDS, just not the same man I once was. Things are different now...And another thing. A true doubled die doesn't have the spread like these famous ones do. Here's an example from my own bunch. 1958 DDO.

[Joseph Franklin]

Gentlemen, be mindful too. I know nothing besides Christ crucified that's all I know okay so I'm not claiming I know anything but that!

Secondly all we have are the books on dies and the strikes that they leave when they strike the coin and the different dies used and bottom line how they look you can give me all the knowledge in the world but I have to look at it to verify it right? I'm not trying to play anybody Mr Joe slick I don't really care what you think I'm here to gain knowledge but.... Dude it sucks that I have to go through this through you guys because I'm asking questions. You don't know what it's like for us... It it's iincredible. And thirdly you don't own this space, and I'm not that person that you compared me to or that you think that I am all I'm doing is talking about coins bro but if you don't like what I'm saying leave me alone don't just don't let me sit there and talk to my self.

[J P M]

I think you are missing the point I was trying to make Joe. The coins you have been posting are not what you think they are. We love questions. We are trying to help you with our knowledge to save you some grief and cash that is all.

[RWB]

This might also help the OP to understand coins made from doubled dies.

http://www.vamworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2647

[Woods020]

In the ever so slim chance you are truly wanting to learn, here are two more resources. Compare the first (true die doubling) to the second (machine doubling). Read the descriptions you can learn a lot  

 

https://www.error-ref.com/doubled-dies/

https://www.error-ref.com/machine-doubling/

Also notice neither of these occur as a result of multiple strikes. You keep throwing that in there but that is a different animal and has nothing to do with doubling. 

 

 

[Woods020]

On 3/10/2022 at 2:13 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Hi Joe, I think we should start out a little slower. I would not want you to be spending good money sending out coins that will come back in body bags. Where do you see a DDO or a DDR

They wouldn’t come back body bagged. They would come back in a slab with a low grade and no mention of a variety. The only thing that would go in a body bag is his wallet for spending the money. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/10/2022 at 2:22 PM, RWB said:

Having just read the above, it is apparent you need to "start over" in learning about coins and how they are manufactured. Could someone please point the OP to the web site that had a description and photos of minting? (It was posted to a thread about a week ago....)

PS: It's "lamination" not "lamentation" although your description makes me want to cry....

Here's the link provided by JustBob: Click Me [Wexler's Die Varieties, How Coins Are Made.]

 

They’re surely lamentations to me. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/10/2022 at 12:34 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

These two coins are the finest in condition I have in my line of Lincoln Doubled Die pennies. Starting from 1927-2000, the year I graduated high school and going off to join the Army Infantry. Here are 2 undocumented DDO/DDR's 1993-D & 1997-D. Here are my questions.

1. Because the coin was struck twice and in doing so caused "damage" or altered the appearance from the original state, but the current state of the "new coin" being struck again is actually causing the damage, or new appearance/die gouges, scratches, etc. Do they lower the grading?

2. Because it is a DDO/DDR and unique and will cause these changes do they only play a part identifying a true DDO DDR?

There is literally nothing to see here. Not a doubled anything, nor an MS69 anything. But I am seriously digging on the name Joseph Franklin. It’s like a mashup of two great Penn State football coaches. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[NormanDupree]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:33 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

Lol...Roger that. And no other coins will leaving. I'm humbled. In this era of coins the DDO&R are tightly fit together. The stacking is tight or "the spread" next to ontop of each other. (The art of post editing helps in this field of picture story telling). The 1997 shows great spreading. That isn't shadow in the serif letting. The 1993 the angle and brightness is up to high to get that one. But all these coins follow right along with variety Vista's book on doubled dies. Especially with these 2 coins. The lamentation missing behind the first "T" in truth for both coins... Then when you have a magnifying glass or loop and slightly tilt the coin you see the breaks and build up of the 2nd strike. I pretty much have 200+ coins all doubled die and DDR so I have plenty of reference material on hand if I am wondering about it being a DDO.The top and bottom of the lettering on reverse is bubbles at the top and that bubbling of you follow it around the whole coin; which is just another indicator of a DDR....

I already know they are both what I claim, but I'd be happy to give more pics to justify my question. I wrote about this grading specifics in an article about body image  https://phdessay.com/free-essays-on/body-image/ on a student resource with free essay samples.

I'll take better ones for the sake of brevity

Thanks for the detailed explanation, I did not know about it.

Edited July 28, 2022 by NormanDupree

[EagleRJO]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:22 PM, RWB said:

Could someone please point the OP to the web site that had a description and photos of minting?

@RWB  I don't know if these articles that were in CoinNews.net a while back are what you may be referring to as far as info on the minting process, but it's a series of articles about the how the Philadelphia Mint makes coins with a lot of good pictures, which people are apparently usually restricted from taking.  They are pretty interesting anyway.  And the series includes one dedicated to how the Philadelphia Mint makes hubs and dies, which I also linked since that may have the info at hand, as well as the next in the series on making the coins

Intro: Public Tour of US Mint at Philadelphia, Photos and Tips | CoinNews

Hubs & Dies: How the Philadelphia Mint Makes Hubs and Dies to Produce Coins | CoinNews

Making Coins:  How the Philadelphia Mint Makes Coins for Circulation | CoinNews

Edited July 27, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Ray Tatum]

You guys are kind. I wanted to say too kind, but this is a sad trainwreck.
If I don’t heed the good advice in this forum one day, then let me waste my money, and then shake your heads, roll your eyes, click your tongues, and call me what I am. You can’t fix my stupidity.
OP, I hope that you come to understand the concerns of the responders. I don’t count the coins that I think are DDs, I weigh them.