Different Generation Holders 1 1

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Hello Forum, hope all is well with everyone  I have a newbie question: I see the different Generation slabs used by TPG's. I also realize perceived or actual grading trends. I was wondering if the slab generation has a correlation with grading tend ices of that time ? I'm thinking did they grade harder in past or present therefore a possible difference in 2 like coins but graded at different times. Please don't laugh me off with a dumb question  

v/r

 

 

[Just Bob]

You are correct. Some of the older NGC 'fatties" and PCGS "rattlers" were more conservatively graded. Notice that I said, "some of..." Not all of them would grade higher if sent back in for a re-grade. I have several MS67 Roosevelts in older holders that, in my opinion, are solid for the grade, but are not candidates for an upgrade.

[RWB]

If you hold a slab up to the light, do any of yours produce electricity? Those are the really good generation slabs to have....you can look at your coin anywhere. (Seriously, there are rumors about new slabs with built-in LEDs, battery and USB charging.)

Edited February 12, 2022 by RWB

[Alex in PA.]

On 2/11/2022 at 3:19 PM, RWB said:

Seriously, there are rumors about new slabs with built-in LEDs, battery and USB charging.)

I do not believe it.  A person could bee fried playing with his/her coin.   

[RWB]

On 2/11/2022 at 3:24 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I do not believe it.  A person could bee fried playing with his/her coin.   

Not at LED voltages....

[Alex in PA.]

[tj96]

I kinda agree with Bob.  But I actually never really got wrapped around the axle on this. I like anything in those old ANACS soap bar slabs. I guess I buy the slab, not the coin. 

[Coinbuf]

There is still a prevalent thought that coins in older holders say the OGH (old green label holder), rattlers, dollies, for the PCGS brand, and the old soap bar NGC holders that were in use before they added in the line about 1/3 down on the slab; that these coins were graded under more tight or stringent grading.   That same analogy also applies to the early photocert and small holders of ANACS and to some now defunct companies like Hallmark and very early PCI.   Those who embrace that line of thinking have now begun to include the slabs from both companies in the generations that came just after those holders with the full insert holder, prior to the current prong style.   There is little evidence to support the notion that the newly included generations are actually undegraded, however given the rampant gradeflation there are going to be some coins that will upgrade from time to time.

The problem is that most of these is hype, why is it hype you ask, well it is a long but simple explanation.   Most of the stuff that you see floating around the bourse circuit or on venues like ebay still in old style holders have been picked over and these are the rejects.   Coins that are not likely to upgrade or because the cost to try for an upgrade is more than the coin would be worth in the next grade up.   A prime example are common date Morgan dollars like an 1881-S, there is a very minimal value spread from MS62 to MS64, so dealers do not feel that it is economical to spend $50 to get an MS63 into an MS64 holder when the MS64 only sells for $35 more than the MS63.   And they are right, better to call the coin undegraded and sell it for a premium MS63 price than spend the money to try for the next grade.  So that is the long answer, the short answer is yes, the grading companies have gone through periods of time where the grading has shifted due to varying factors like employee changes and management changes throughout their history.   And yes, there is a belief that those coins can be identified by some generations of holders

The only way to find really premium coins in these old holders is when an old time collection that has been off the market for decades suddenly appears and is sold, that is when you see the opportunity to really find true fresh undegraded coins in older holders.   The problem is that as a collector you or I may have a very limited opportunity to see such collections before they are picked clean.   Brick and mortar dealers see these opportunities on occasion and when they do, they use that opportunity to pick those coins that they feel are undegraded and have those coins regraded and placed into new holders.    I was very fortunate to have that opportunity at the end of last year when a fellow inherited some great coins in older types of holders and came here to inquire about the best way to sell those.  It turned out that he lived only a couple of miles away from me and I met with him to review the collection and discuss some strategies for selling.   That was a real treat for me to see all those coins that had been held for thirty years +, that was a first and could well be the only time I'll be able to have that unique opportunity.

Sorry for the long post but this subject is somewhat simple but with many minor nuances.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Coinbuf

[GoldFinger1969]

Great post, Coinbuf. 

LDhall, you asked a very good question one asked by many intermediate and even expert coin collectors.  If you go over the PCGS and NGC Hall of Holders throughout time, you can see certain holders associated with more stringent grading standards...and most importantly.....the time period about 2004 when most veterans seem to indicate that market grading supplanted technical grading and standards were loosened.

Now, just because a coin is in a holder that is associated with "tough" or "easy" grading doesn't mean it is weak for the grade or misgraded.  First of all, it can have a CAC sticker which certainly means it is very solid for the grade irrepsective of the holder.  Second, some graders may be more forgiving of blemishes in fields on the obverse or reverse or edge of the coin which people who collect that particular coin (or you yourself) may NOT prefer.  So someone grades a Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle in 1994 and they graded it "tough" because it had marks in the obverse fields but maybe it's a different coin where collectors are more concerned with the reverse.  Or it's tough to find any coin unless one 2 or 3 grades higher that does NOT have marks in the fields.  That sort of thing.

Ultimately, you want to buy the COIN and not the LABEL or the HOLDER.  You'll see that lots of times here and on other coin sites.  Always go by your eyes in judging a coin, but for sure, if you have a coin in a holder associated with "tough" grading and you think it looks undergraded, it might well be (or not).  And a coin in a holder during a period of "loose" grading might be overgraded (or not).

It's also true that each of the TPGs -- PCGS and NGC -- have certain reputations for being harder or easier with certain coins.  So the one associated with more expertise and "tougher" grading -- even if not justified -- may see their coins sell for a premium.  We've seen that play out with PCGS in U.S. domestic coins and NGC in foreign coins.  Yet I've noted here and elsewhere that some of the most egregious overgrades and re-grades into valuable $$$ territotory happened under PCGS, not NGC, and it is the former that trades at a premium as the "better" grader so go figure. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

On 2/11/2022 at 4:40 PM, Coinbuf said:

There is still a prevalent thought that coins in older holders say the OGH (old green label holder), rattlers, dollies, for the PCGS brand, and the old soap bar NGC holders that were in use before they added in the line about 1/3 down on the slab; that these coins were graded under more tight or stringent grading.   That same analogy also applies to the early photocert and small holders of ANACS and to some now defunct companies like Hallmark and very early PCI.   Those who embrace that line of thinking have now begun to include the slabs from both companies in the generations that came just after those holders with the full insert holder, prior to the current prong style.   There is little evidence to support the notion that the newly included generations are actually undegraded, however given the rampant gradeflation there are going to be some coins that will upgrade from time to time.

The problem is that most of these is hype, why is it hype you ask, well it is a long but simple explanation.   Most of the stuff that you see floating around the bourse circuit or on venues like ebay still in old style holders have been picked over and these are the rejects.   Coins that are not likely to upgrade or because the cost to try for an upgrade is more than the coin would be worth in the next grade up.   A prime example are common date Morgan dollars like an 1881-S, there is a very minimal value spread from MS62 to MS64, so dealers do not feel that it is economical to spend $50 to get an MS63 into an MS64 holder when the MS64 only sells for $35 more than the MS63.   And they are right, better to call the coin undegraded and sell it for a premium MS63 price than spend the money to try for the next grade.  So that is the long answer, the short answer is yes, the grading companies have gone through periods of time where the grading has shifted due to varying factors like employee changes and management changes throughout their history.   And yes, there is a belief that those coins can be identified by some generations of holders

The only way to find really premium coins in these old holders is when an old time collection that has been off the market for decades suddenly appears and is sold, that is when you see the opportunity to really find true fresh undegraded coins in older holders.   The problem is that as a collector you or I may have a very limited opportunity to see such collections before they are picked clean.   Brick and mortar dealers see these opportunities on occasion and when they do, they use that opportunity to pick those coins that they feel are undegraded and have those coins regraded and placed into new holders.    I was very fortunate to have that opportunity at the end of last year when a fellow inherited some great coins in older types of holders and came here to inquire about the best way to sell those.  It turned out that he lived only a couple of miles away from me and I met with him to review the collection and discuss some strategies for selling.   That was a real treat for me to see all those coins that had been held for thirty years +, that was a first and could well be the only time I'll be able to have that unique opportunity.

Sorry for the long post but this subject is somewhat simple but with many minor nuances.

 

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Thanx to all great feedback. Goldfinger - you really made a lot of sense and I do see how the companies differ in price  

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:25 PM, RWB said:

Not at LED voltages....

Don’t automatically discount “should be fried”.

[Woods020]

I agree with what most have said. I recently spent a few months cataloging and evaluating a large amount of PCGS rattlers in a large collection I bought. Most were Mercs and Morgans, and I took the time to evaluate them with other examples I already had in my collection at like grades. Also, to note these all came from one older collector who has never heard of CAC and wouldn't know how to send a coin in to be regraded if he had to. He just so happened to quit actively collecting when rattlers were all the rage. 

Variation is present even today and is noticeable if you really take the time to compare. With that said it was the exception much more than the rule that a coin had a legitimate shot at upgrading. I would estimate 10% had a real shot, and I wish I had kept a log now just to have the percentage. This is across 100 or so rattler slabbed coins that have sat in a safety deposit box since the late 80s. 

I say all this as a long-winded way of saying yes grade inflation has occurred, but perhaps not the extent we often hear. Additionally, an old slab does not necessarily mean an under graded coin, with a small percentage being the exception. If my sample was anywhere near representative and my grading was close, we are talking 1 in 10 may receive an upgrade.

[MN1]

I think the OP's question was a great one and I like reading the responses.  I have graded coins I bought and some I had graded myself.  Some have gift grades, some under-graded, and some seem right to me.  I have noticed generous grades more often in certain holders.  Mainly with one TPG in particular.  I also see on Great Collections some older holders selling at a premium over the current holder (not the case with all TPG holders).  There is a lot that goes into all that and I am no statistician or expert.  I learn here too and that is what is good about the Chat Board.  

[Woods020]

On 2/12/2022 at 8:50 PM, MN1 said:

I think the OP's question was a great one and I like reading the responses.  I have graded coins I bought and some I had graded myself.  Some have gift grades, some under-graded, and some seem right to me.  I have noticed generous grades more often in certain holders.  Mainly with one TPG in particular.  I also see on Great Collections some older holders selling at a premium over the current holder (not the case with all TPG holders).  There is a lot that goes into all that and I am no statistician or expert.  I learn here too and that is what is good about the Chat Board.  

No question old holders sell for a premium. I am currently enjoying the benefits of some of that. I think the point I was trying to make is that aside from a small number of "Slab collectors", who buy the plastic and not the coin, most people pay a premium assuming the coin is under graded. I contend it is a low percentage that are. That is more than likely skewed by many of the ones that would upgrade have done so by now.