Shipwreck coins...how can you tell if they are real of replicas? I have two and they test a bit over 18K 0

[Judy Stockton]

Anyone have a clue about shipwreck coins? Worth sending in?
This is 1714  (2) Escuado

They test above 18K

???

[Woods020]

Judy,

Welcome. How did you come to own this coin? I’m not an expert in these but I doubt highly that it is authentic. It doesn’t look right and it’s an unlikely event to get an uncertified shipwreck gold coin. 
 

My money is on it being a souvenir shop replica, and I’m surprised it is testing as Gold. Someone more versed will come along soon enough. 

[GBrad]

I am inclined to be along the same thought process of @Woods020.  Can you supply us with a weight of your coin? Preferably in 100th's of a gram.  Welcome to the forum.  

[Judy Stockton]

On 12/22/2021 at 8:33 PM, Woods020 said:

Judy,

Welcome. How did you come to own this coin? I’m not an expert in these but I doubt highly that it is authentic. It doesn’t look right and it’s an unlikely event to get an uncertified shipwreck gold coin. 
 

My money is on it being a souvenir shop replica, and I’m surprised it is testing as Gold. Someone more versed will come along soon enough. 

Hi. A coin collector friend of mine had it (actually two of them)...they are indeed gold, as I had them professionally tested...but he most definitely told me they were replicas...but my big question is "should I send it in to grade" or is it a total waste of money?

[Judy Stockton]

On 12/22/2021 at 9:00 PM, GBrad said:

I am inclined to be along the same thought process of @Woods020.  Can you supply us with a weight of your coin? Preferably in 100th's of a gram.  Welcome to the forum.  

Hi. Yes, this coin weighs 8.41 grams...it's most definitely gold...just barely above 18K

I had it tested.

[Judy Stockton]

On the "shipwreck" coins...I have two of them...very, very close to the same...a few differences...one weighs 8.287 grams...the other weighs 8.412 grams

They are for sure a bit over 18K. 

Judy

[Judy Stockton]

On 12/22/2021 at 9:51 PM, Judy Stockton said:

Hi. A coin collector friend of mine had it (actually two of them)...they are indeed gold, as I had them professionally tested...but he most definitely told me they were replicas...but my big question is "should I send it in to grade" or is it a total waste of money?

And, I don't want to send them in if all of you think they are replicas...waste of money for sure...NGC charges $78 per coin for the grading...yipes...not counting shipping

[Morpheus1967]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:51 AM, Judy Stockton said:

Hi. A coin collector friend of mine had it (actually two of them)...they are indeed gold, as I had them professionally tested...but he most definitely told me they were replicas...but my big question is "should I send it in to grade" or is it a total waste of money?

 

On 12/23/2021 at 2:00 AM, Judy Stockton said:

And, I don't want to send them in if all of you think they are replicas...waste of money for sure...NGC charges $78 per coin for the grading...yipes...not counting shipping

I'm confused.  Your friend told you they were replicas, but you don't want to send them in if they are replicas?

[bsshog40]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:16 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

 

I'm confused.  Your friend told you they were replicas, but you don't want to send them in if they are replicas?

Maybe just wanting more opinions. I also wonder how a gold test was performed. If they are replicas, than most likely just gold plated. Can't see replicas made of 18k> solid gold. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by bsshog40

[JKK]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:54 PM, Judy Stockton said:

On the "shipwreck" coins...I have two of them...very, very close to the same...a few differences...one weighs 8.287 grams...the other weighs 8.412 grams

They are for sure a bit over 18K. 

Judy

Then that's a problem if you believe them to be Spanish doubloons (the common name for the 2 escudo gold coin; in Spanish, doblón), colonial or otherwise. A quick scan of the specs for Spanish, Peruvian, and Mexican gold doubloons of the era indicates coin weights in the neighborhood of 6.75g. Four-escudo coins tend to roughly double that.

You have not given us average diameters or thickness, so we cannot yet evaluate those aspects. In coins with irregular and relatively primitive minting, it's not strange for those to be difficult to measure, but they would be additional data as far as they went.

It would make minimal sense for an authentic coin to be about 25% overweight. Doesn't take a chemistry degree to start doubting authenticity at that point.

[VKurtB]

Replica = Not Gradable

(with VERY few exceptions)

[Judy Stockton]

Thanks for all the responses...here are the details of the coins. They were tested with a Thermo laser gun...absolutely a bit over 18K.

My point is that if they are replicas, I don't want to waste money sending it in for grading...does NCG just send it back and refund or how does that work? I'm sending in my first coins to be graded and just want to make sure I'm doing things right. I'm shipping about a dozen double eagles, along with this coin.

Here are the dimensions, etc.

[RWB]

TPGs won't authenticate or grade counterfeits - which is what "replicas" are.

[GBrad]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:54 PM, VKurtB said:

Replica = Not Gradable

 

On 12/23/2021 at 2:11 PM, RWB said:

TPGs won't authenticate or grade counterfeits - which is what "replicas" are.

Judy, VKurtB answered your question before your last post.  RWB reiterated what Kurt said as well.  Just for the record, one more time, a Third Party Grader (TPG) will not grade or authenticate a coin that is not "the real deal".  

 

On 12/23/2021 at 11:32 AM, JKK said:

It would make minimal sense for an authentic coin to be about 25% overweight. Doesn't take a chemistry degree to start doubting authenticity at that point.

And one other note: @JKK made a comparison between the weight of your "coin" and a real Spanish Doubloon.  I meant to thank you for supplying the weight of your coin after I asked last night.  Gold, obviously being extremely valuable as far back as history goes, makes it very odd that your coin would excessively exceed the weight, as it does, of a real Doubloon.  I may be wrong as I'm not a metallurgist, but it seems that I've read about another type of testing device called an XRF I believe that would definitively identify the type(s) of metal in your "coin". Not sure what a Thermo laser gun is other than your simple point and shoot laser gun that registers only temperature.  

Edited December 23, 2021 by GBrad

[JKK]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:38 AM, GBrad said:

 

Judy, VKurtB answered your question before your last post.  RWB reiterated what Kurt said as well.  Just for the record, one more time, a Third Party Grader (TPG) will not grade or authenticate a coin that is not "the real deal".

Reckon the key question for her was whether they'd take her money then tell her it was not genuine, or give her a refund. My money is on them keeping it, but obviously I don't know the answer. Someone here surely does, though.

[Judy Stockton]

Yes, I talked to them...they still charge you, as they have to look at it. To me, it's worth the price to know. Thank you all.

[Mohawk]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:30 PM, JKK said:

Reckon the key question for her was whether they'd take her money then tell her it was not genuine, or give her a refund. My money is on them keeping it, but obviously I don't know the answer. Someone here surely does, though.

I submitted a coin that turned out to be a fake......the notorious 1336/1 Ottoman gold 100 Kurush.  What I got back was a fake coin in a bodybag and no refund.  So, in my experience, the TPGs keep the fee, whether the coin is the real deal or not.  It makes sense that they do.....they still provided a service and examined the piece, so they kept their end of the bargain.  

[Judy Stockton]

Agree...to me it's worth it. Thank you!

[JKK]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:06 PM, Judy Stockton said:

Agree...to me it's worth it. Thank you!

Where in interior Alaska? Foster daughter is from Noorvik, wife's from Anchorage, in-laws live in Anch and Palmer, brother-in-law and neph work on the Slope. Wife's father used to run Anchorage Parks & Rec after he got out of the army. Good friends from Delta Junction, Fairbanks, and so on.

[Judy Stockton]

Well, we are 60 miles from Delta Junction...north...and we are 55 miles south of Fairbanks. That is all called the Interior. Arctic desert! Brrrrr

[JKK]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:31 PM, Judy Stockton said:

Well, we are 60 miles from Delta Junction...north...and we are 55 miles south of Fairbanks. That is all called the Interior. Arctic desert! Brrrrr

Yeah, that's no place for people who don't like cold weather. I've never been farther north than Wasilla. Was up there briefly one summer (helping future wife drive down Alcan) and twice in winter. My job was Bullwinkle watch. Wife convinced me that the greatest hazard was not the slick roads, but having a moose get in the way. I believed.

[RWB]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:58 PM, Mohawk said:

I submitted a coin that turned out to be a fake......the notorious 1336/1 Ottoman gold 100 Kurush.  What I got back was a fake coin in a bodybag and no refund.  So, in my experience, the TPGs keep the fee, whether the coin is the real deal or not.  It makes sense that they do.....they still provided a service and examined the piece, so they kept their end of the bargain.  

The TPG fees are for their examination. The service is not, and never was, free.

[J P M]

Forgive me I am old fashion. What would be the reasoning to spend good money on send in a fake coin that will be rejected ? Will it bring a higher price on resale on one of those internet coin selling places if it has a rejection sticker on it ?

[Conder101]

On 12/23/2021 at 2:06 PM, Judy Stockton said:

does NCG just send it back and refund or how does that work?

They will sent it back, but you WILL be charged the grading fees, the invoice fee, and the shipping fees.  Bassically they will keep all the money and you will getyour piece back if a flip just like you sent it to them, with a label that indicates it is not genuine.

[JKK]

On 12/25/2021 at 3:46 AM, J P Mashoke said:

Forgive me I am old fashion. What would be the reasoning to spend good money on send in a fake coin that will be rejected ? Will it bring a higher price on resale on one of those internet coin selling places if it has a rejection sticker on it ?

Realistically, there is only one answer to that: The OP must surely believe there is at least a chance that the received opinion of this whole group might be wrong. And that's okay. I do not understand it, but if the OP must spend $80ish in order to confirm that we're all correct, it's their money.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:54 PM, VKurtB said:

Replica = Not Gradable

(with VERY few exceptions)

Troo dat!

[VKurtB]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:46 AM, J P Mashoke said:

Forgive me I am old fashion. What would be the reasoning to spend good money on send in a fake coin that will be rejected ? Will it bring a higher price on resale on one of those internet coin selling places if it has a rejection sticker on it ?

No, you’re smart, not old fashioned. 

[VKurtB]

On 1/16/2022 at 5:55 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Troo dat!

One exception is the replica Brasher doubloons struck by the then current owner of a real one, at the 2014 ANA show. The replicas were graded as “genuine replicas”. They sold for a decent markup over bullion - more than a genuine common date St. Gaudens $20. They even had the EB stamp. And a tiny date of 2014. Therefore a fantasy coin and NOT a counterfeit, DESPITE Mr. Burdette’s protestations to the contrary. He’s WRONG on his definition. Absolutely WRONG. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by VKurtB

[dollarfan]

is this about the same size and weight of a $5 gold half eagle?  based on size and weight it seems like it may be gold.  that makes me wonder why a non authentic piece wouldnt be much lighter.   how much would a piece like this be worth if it was confirmed genuine.   and does anyone else think it looks like gold?  it does seem to have alot of dents similar to some older pieces i have seen????  but then again the surface looks very porous.  

[Mohawk]

On 1/16/2022 at 3:37 PM, VKurtB said:

One exception is the replica Brasher doubloons struck by the then current owner of a real one, at the 2014 ANA show. The replicas were graded as “genuine replicas”. They sold for a decent markup over bullion - more than a genuine common date St. Gaudens $20. They even had the EB stamp. And a tiny date of 2014. Therefore a fantasy coin and NOT a counterfeit, DESPITE Mr. Burdette’s protestations to the contrary. He’s WRONG on his definition. Absolutely WRONG. 

It kind of sounds like what the German mints do from time to time.  They'll restrike older and rarer coins but date them somewhere on the coin with the date it was actually struck.  They're actually coins of the stated denomination...they're struck by the official Mints in the original materials, but often in a modern proof finish.  Here's an example:

Edited January 16, 2022 by Mohawk