4 million dollar nickel 2 2

[MarkFeld]

On 11/13/2021 at 12:36 PM, RWB said:

1894-S dimes are circulation strikes and recorded that way in all US Mint documents, reports and later correspondence to coin collectors. The real curiosity is why more were not made in the 2nd half of the calendar year. Mint HQ was fully aware that only 24 had been made, and HQ had a verbal policy of preventing low mintage that encouraged speculation.

1913 Liberty nickels are novodels, being pieces made from official dies in imitation of legitimate coins. They are not mentioned in any US Mint documents and reports.

Roger, how do you define “novodel” such that you consider 1913 Liberty nickels to fall under that category? They’re not what I think of as novodels, though if they were produced after 1913, I might feel differently.

.

[gmarguli]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:36 AM, RWB said:

1894-S dimes are circulation strikes and recorded that way in all US Mint documents, reports and later correspondence to coin collectors. The real curiosity is why more were not made in the 2nd half of the calendar year. Mint HQ was fully aware that only 24 had been made, and HQ had a verbal policy of preventing low mintage that encouraged speculation.

Blind guess. Minting 100,000 of one coin that usually has a mintage in the millions promotes speculation and encourages those coins to be removed from commerce. This could create a problem with not enough coinage in circulation. Minting 24 and those being removed from circulation would not cause any issues. 

[RWB]

On 11/13/2021 at 2:32 PM, MarkFeld said:

Roger, how do you define “novodel” such that you consider 1913 Liberty nickels to fall under that category? They’re not what I think of as novodels, though if they were produced after 1913, I might feel differently.

.

Fraser's Buffalo nickel design was approved in mid-December 1912, and from that moment Barber's Liberty design was void on new coins. 1913 Liberty nickels post-date its period of legality, so the coins were from new dies imitating the original. That generally fits the definition of "novodel" (newly made). [A fly in this ointment is that Barber made dies for 1913 during November and December 1912 - in conformance with standard practice.]

A complete definition from Russian numismatist Ivan Georgievich Spassky notes that it is possible to divide novodels into the following groups (not counting the "hybrid" combination): 

1.late stamping with authentic dies 

2.stamping with copies of dies 

3.re-stamping with dies cut after previously issued coins, or even after their reproductions in books 

4.copying of coins which were produced by mints other than the one involved 

5.striking with "borrowed" dies 

6.the manufacture of coins which did not exist before.

Also, a simpler working definition was written in 1985 by Russian numismatist Vasiliy Vasilyievich Uzdenikov: “An object struck at some date later than that indicated on the object, at the mint with original or newly cut dies, or outside of the mint but with original dies.” The term has been adopted by American numismatists to describe newly cut dies, with the term “restrike” being limited to reuse of original dies. This brief version has some problems especially relating to restrike proof half cents and others, but the general idea seems sound.

Edited November 13, 2021 by RWB
Correct spelling

[RWB]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:37 PM, gmarguli said:

Blind guess. Minting 100,000 of one coin that usually has a mintage in the millions promotes speculation and encourages those coins to be removed from commerce. This could create a problem with not enough coinage in circulation. Minting 24 and those being removed from circulation would not cause any issues. 

Small circulation mintages in the 1880s were an attempt to cut off speculation in proof coins for those years. Dir. Kimball specifically refers to this in his 1887 Annual Report. Similar actions occurred for Lincoln cents and Buffalo nickels of various dates & mints to avoid creating a "scarcity."

Edited November 13, 2021 by RWB

[MarkFeld]

On 11/13/2021 at 2:43 PM, RWB said:

Fraser's Buffalo nickel design was approved in mid-December 1912, and from that moment Barber's Liberty design was void on new coins. 1913 Liberty nickels post-date its period of legality, so the coins were from new dies imitating the original. That generally fits the definition of "novodel" (newly made). [A fly in this ointment is that Barber made dies for 1913 during November and December 1912 - in conformance with standard practice.]

A complete definition from Russian numismatist Nicoli Spaskii notes that it is possible to divide novodels into the following groups (not counting the "hybrid" combination): 

1.late stamping with authentic dies 

2.stamping with copies of dies 

3.re-stamping with dies cut after previously issued coins, or even after their reproductions in books 

4.copying of coins which were produced by mints other than the one involved 

5.striking with "borrowed" dies 

6.the manufacture of coins which did not exist before.

Also, simpler working definition was written in 1985 by Russian numismatist Vasiliy Vasilyievich Uzdenikov: “An object struck at some date later than that indicated on the object, at the mint with original or newly cut dies, or outside of the mint but with original dies.” The term has been adopted by American numismatists to describe newly cut dies, with the term “restrike” being limited to reuse of original dies. This brief version has some problems especially relating to restrike proof half cents and others, but the general idea seems sound.

Thanks very much. The “fly in the ointment” you mentioned is what causes me to want to call the coins something other than novodels.

[RWB]

On 11/13/2021 at 4:04 PM, MarkFeld said:

Thanks very much. The “fly in the ointment” you mentioned is what causes me to want to call the coins something other than novodels.

What would you prefer to call them?

[VKurtB]

What do we know, and how much CAN we know, about the actual date on which the five 1913’s were made? What ever became of the dies? Is there any knowledge or at least a plausible theory?

Edited November 14, 2021 by VKurtB

[Conder101]

The 1913 liberty nickel dies were almost certainly destroyed after the end of 1912 along with all the 1912 dies.

[VKurtB]

On 11/18/2021 at 1:07 PM, Conder101 said:

The 1913 liberty nickel dies were almost certainly destroyed after the end of 1912 along with all the 1912 dies.

You figure maybe more than one obverse die? Hardly seems necessary.

[Conder101]

Possibly.  Michael Wollcott in his book on the Nickel five cent pieces indicated that five pairs of 1913 dies were shipped to San Francisco before the orders came down not to do anything about the five cent pieces until the final work on the Indian head design was approved. (The Indian Head was still trying to satisfy the vending machine people and didn't come out until I believe February of 1913.)  I can't say if that is right or not because I do not know what the source of his information was.  I have not seen it from any other source.

[Henri Charriere]

[Why is the five-cent piece, which was never comprised of more than 25% nickel at any time during its various incarnations in its long, storied history, called a nickel? Anyone?]

[zadok]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:41 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Why is the five-cent piece, which was never comprised of more than 25% nickel at any time during its various incarnations in its long, storied history, called a nickel? Anyone?]

...cause its not silver......

[MarkFeld]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:38 PM, RWB said:

What would you prefer to call them?

That’s what I’m struggling with. Perhaps “unauthorized coins” or “unofficial unauthorized coins”? I realize that those options don’t flow particularly easily.

[RWB]

On 11/26/2021 at 7:33 AM, MarkFeld said:

That’s what I’m struggling with. Perhaps “unauthorized coins” or “unofficial unauthorized coins”? I realize that those options don’t flow particularly easily.

Yep. Another difficulty is that since the 1913 date dies were not approved for use, and pieces made from them would not be legal tender - so they are not really coins. I use "novodel" based on the designs being made at the Philadelphia Mint, but the date not being legitimate.

On 11/23/2021 at 7:58 PM, Conder101 said:

Michael Wollcott in his book on the Nickel five cent pieces indicated that five pairs of 1913 dies were shipped to San Francisco before the orders came down not to do anything about the five cent pieces until the final work on the Indian head design was approved.

This is a requisition for 1913-date dies for San Francisco (similar for Denver). I do not have anything stating when these were received.

November 13, 1912

      The Superintendent of the Mint at San Francisco has made requisition for the following coinage dies for the calendar year 1913:

 Five pairs double eagle dies

Five pairs Eagle dies

Five pairs half eagle dies

Ten pairs half dollar dies

Ten pairs quarter dollar dies

Ten pairs dime dies

Ten pairs 5-cent dies

Ten pairs 1-cent dies

 [Nov 29 dies req for Denver; Dec 5 – additional dies for Denver]

Edited November 26, 2021 by RWB

[Conder101]

In Michael' book he does indicate that the S mint dies were returned and received in late December.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Conder101

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:28 PM, zadok said:

...cause its not silver......

Purportedly a shortened form of kupfernickel (copper nickel) from the German, but...