Question about two 1887 British Victoria double Florins 1 1

[Mr.Bill347]

I bought two British 1887 Victoria double Florins. The larger one has a known error a Roman “1” the second smaller one has the corrected Arabic “1” . Why are they different sizes? Is the smaller one not actually a double Florin as sold and advertised?

the larger one is 35mm the smaller one is 28mm

the larger one weighs 23 g the smaller one 11 g

thanks in advance.

Bill

[JKK]

Let's put our thinking caps on. One is about half the weight of the other. To what rational conclusion might that lead us, if we thought real hard on the matter?

[Mr.Bill347]

I have messaged the seller. What he sent me is not a Double Florin but maybe a six pence. In 1887 they weren’t real good about printing the denomination. 

[Mr.Bill347]

JKK I wasn’t really looking for sarcasm In your reply. If you don’t have the answer just say so. I was thinking of bidding on this one to sort of get the set. This is a Crown again no indication that it’s a crown except for the queens beast on the reverse.

[JKK]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:53 AM, Mr.Bill347 said:

JKK I wasn’t really looking for sarcasm In your reply. If you don’t have the answer just say so. I was thinking of bidding on this one to sort of get the set. This is a Crown again no indication that it’s a crown except for the queens beast on the reverse.

 

I do have the answer. I was attempting to engage in instructional guidance, hoping that the process might educate a little bit. Clearly that was not going to be a productive process.

[Mr.Bill347]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:45 PM, JKK said:

I do have the answer. I was attempting to engage in instructional guidance, hoping that the process might educate a little bit. Clearly that was not going to be a productive process.

I am always open to learning , of course, but condescendingly responses are not something I need.

[Mr.Bill347]

JKK, please don’t misunderstand my question. Please come down off that lofty gold throne you sit on and discuss with me as I am an old man who loves coins and don’t fully understand why two different sellers would state Double Florin, when in fact. One is not. The smaller coin came in the pictured flip labeled 1887 Victoria jubilee double Florin . Somebody is wrong, I’m just trying to figure out who. I know you are a very highly respected and veteran coin professional and I just a neophyte but regardless, I am only human.

[Coinbuf]

As I am not familiar with this material I cannot help with your question, however for what its worth I did not find @JKK's comment to be condescending.  More like a teacher invoking a thought process to reach a conclusion.   Its unfortunate that you read/interpreted it differently.

[Mohawk]

Bill...as someone who has learned a massive ton from Jonathan over the years and who has a doctoral degree in higher education leadership, I see what he said as instructional as well.  Rather than just hand you an answer, he was urging you to look at the problem and find your own answer.  The problem with talking on a message board is that we lose tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions and body language, which can cause things said instructionally to sound abrupt or even rude, depending on who views it.  Jonathan is super knowledgeable.  He's one of the most knowledgeable people on this whole message board.  If it weren't for what I learned from him and his mentoring, I wouldn't be doing anywhere near as well with ancients as I am.  He really is an amazing teacher.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Mohawk

[Mr.Bill347]

I have zero doubts about His qualifications and experience but I’m sorry the Thinking cap comment was taken as condescending. I’m sorry I saw it that way. I’m just trying to figure out who sold me a bill of goods.

[JKK]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:26 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

JKK, please don’t misunderstand my question. Please come down off that lofty gold throne you sit on and discuss with me as I am an old man who loves coins and don’t fully understand why two different sellers would state Double Florin, when in fact. One is not. The smaller coin came in the pictured flip labeled 1887 Victoria jubilee double Florin . Somebody is wrong, I’m just trying to figure out who. I know you are a very highly respected and veteran coin professional and I just a neophyte but regardless, I am only human.

"Lofty gold throne"? You're so very welcome. Let me just get my sceptre and ermine robe and I'll be moving along.

[Mr.Bill347]

So I guess I’ll just toss them in the trash then.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Same design, one half the weight, and the larger a double florin..... 2-1=1

On 11/1/2021 at 5:04 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

So I guess I’ll just toss them in the trash then.

NOOOOO!

[J P M]

Well Bill I know not a thing about your coins but I am going to take a wild guess and say you have two Florin's. The larger one is a Double Florin and the smaller one is Silver Crown which may also be called a Florin. 

[Mr.Bill347]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:54 PM, Mohawk said:

Bill...as someone who has learned a massive ton from Jonathan over the years and who has an doctoral degree in higher education leadership, I see what he said as instructional as well.  Rather than just hand you an answer, he was urging you to look at the problem and find your own answer.  The problem with talking on a message board is that we lose tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions and body language, which can cause things said instructionally to sound abrupt or even rude, depending on who views it.  Jonathan is super knowledgeable.  He's one of the most knowledgeable people on this whole message board.  If it weren't for what I learned from him and his mentoring, I wouldn't be doing anywhere near as well with ancients as I am.  He really is an amazing teacher.

Mohawk I understand all that about Jonathon, I Am acutely aware of his esteemed knowledge. I just want to know why the smaller and lighter coin was sold and labeled as a double Florin when the larger one was also sold as a double Florin. I don’t know who to complain to. JKK I’m really not that offended as I’m sure you are aware, there are a lot of thick skinned numismatists out there. I’m just looking to figure out a simple question.

who done it?

[Fenntucky Mike]

The two coins appear to be in roughly the same condition, that being said if you paid for two 2 Florin coins then yes you probably got the short end of the stick and are out a little bit of money, but not significantly. 

[Mr.Bill347]

Thanks man, I’m thinking that too. The flip that the smaller coin came in included. No wonder I was confused.

On 11/1/2021 at 5:31 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

The two coins appear to be in roughly the same condition, that being said if you paid for two 2 Florin coins then yes you probably got the short end of the stick and are out a little bit of money, but not significantly. 

 

[Mr.Bill347]

The attached reference indicates the smaller coin is, indeed a 1 Florin (2 shilling ) coin. The seller misrepresented it as a double Florin, which it is not. On the better side of things, it has an Arabic “1” as opposed to the coin in this example. Who knows which is better to have. Btw, I paid about the same for both. The seller of the smaller Florin who indicated it was a double Florin was incorrect and dies accept returns, should I keep it and try again to find the Double Florin with the Arabic “1”?

[Mr.Bill347]

To JKK, Mohawk, JP et Al.

Jonathon, I would like to offer my apology for my responses yesterday and sorry that I misunderstood your intent. I was already upset because the coin that I bought was not what it was supposed to be and I was confused. I certainly know how to halve something and understood that. My point was that maybe there was something I did not understand with regard to the different sized coins and since denominations weren’t marked could not be sure. I’ve since researched and determined that the smaller coin was in fact a 1 Florin coin and the seller admitted that it was mislabeled and that I could return it. I’m sure you know the controversy around this coin having to do with a Roman “1” which was later in the year changed to an Arabic “1”. My goal was to get both double Florin examples, and in that, I failed. It hard to tell dimensions by pictures of similar coins. Again, I’m sorry if I offended you, and fully realize the extent of your knowledge and expertise. As I said in one of my responses, I’m just an old man who enjoys coins, and I am only human. Please accept my apology and I hope we will again be cordial to each other in the future.

thank you

Bill Horton

[VKurtB]

Florins existed right up to decimalization, and arguably still exist today as 10p pieces. The double florin fell out of favor and has only fairly recently reappeared as the small thick 20p. The half crown was 2 shillings and sixpence, not two florins, which made the Crown equal to 5 shillings. These double florins (48 pence) were more than a half crown (30 pence) and less than a crown (60 pence).

Edited November 2, 2021 by VKurtB