Fourth time is a charm (maybe....??) Improperly Annealed 2020-P Jefferson🤔 1 1

[GBrad]

I'm 0-3 on these things here posting on the forum but I just so bad want to find one in the wild so I can check it off the bucket list. I know they aren't worth the cost of submission but I JUST WANT ONE (that I found)!!!  I think this is my best shot at having found one.  What say ye?

Edited October 31, 2021 by GBrad
One more obverse pic, different lighting

[bsshog40]

Just looks like a nickel with some oddball toning/tarnish to me. 

[J P M]

Is it blistering or delaminating?

[GBrad]

On 10/31/2021 at 5:02 PM, bsshog40 said:

Just looks like a nickel with some oddball toning/tarnish to me. 

 

On 10/31/2021 at 5:03 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Is it blistering or delaminating?

Hey bsshog, I have looked at 100's of IA's in the past (trying to learn what to look for) and I know for a fact it is definitely hard to discern what is and what isn't an IA. I've seen some on HA that I thought were questionable but then some that were just beautiful and by the book.   This one just appears to have all the characteristics, especially since it is a newer Nickel which I know doesn't really matter but may possibly lend some credit.  

J P, there isn't any blistering or anything like that going on at all.  There's not any lamination issues either.  Just a nice copper color on both the obverse and reverse.  I've read up on everything Mike Diamond has posted about these things and the coloration on mine looks to be spot on with some he has posted and discussed in the past. 

Thanks for the replies and comments guys! 

[Oldhoopster]

It looks too blotchy and uneven to be misannealed, IMO.

Remember, misannealed errors are caused by an  incorrect atmosphere in the annealing furnace.  I would expect the wrong atmosphere (reducing or oxidizing) to react with all of the planchet surfaces and not leave significant color variations. Just my thoughts.

 

[GBrad]

Here's an IA Jefferson picture from Error-Ref.com  Mine looks to resemble the same copper coloration albeit there is a difference in the lighting of this photo vs. my pics.  In addition, per Error-Ref, an IA planchet can be both spotty or entirely complete in its color which I'm sure you know.  Just thought I'd add this in here.  By no means am I tying to convince anyone here.  Just thought I had a decent shot at having found one.  Like I always say.... no big deal, ain't the end of the world.  There's one out there with my name on it floating around just waiting on me patiently. 

[GBrad]

On 10/31/2021 at 5:53 PM, Oldhoopster said:

It looks too blotchy and uneven to be misannealed, IMO.

I can understand that.  I probably shouldn't have added that third pic.  It really made it look different than it appears in hand.  Thanks hoop!

[Oldhoopster]

Fred Weinberg shared a good tip.  Look at the edge. If the edge is discolored, then it's environmental damage.  If it looks like a normal coin, then misannealing is a possibility.  A couple caveats, it works best for reeded coins and newly struck issues.

The explanation is that the atmospheric reaction in the annealing furnace is a surface phenomenon.  When the planchet is struck, it expands to fill the collar.  Then, as it's ejected from the die, the edge surface  rubs/abrades against the collar.  This wears off the discolored surface.

So check the edge

 

 

[Coinbuf]

Do you have any edge photos?

[GBrad]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:32 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Fred Weinberg shared a good tip.  Look at the edge. If the edge is discolored, then it's environmental damage.  If it looks like a normal coin, then misannealing is a possibility.  A couple caveats, it works best for reeded coins and newly struck issues.

The explanation is that the atmospheric reaction in the annealing furnace is a surface phenomenon.  When the planchet is struck, it expands to fill the collar.  Then, as it's ejected from the die, the edge surface  rubs/abrades against the collar.  This wears off the discolored surface.

So check the edge

 

 

 

On 10/31/2021 at 6:54 PM, Coinbuf said:

Do you have any edge photos?

Hey guys, sorry for the delayed response and thank you for your comments.  I had the trick-or-treat Halloween thing tonight and I'm just now settling in at 3:00 AM....🙄.  I am  familiar with the edge coloration on an IA as Fred has explained and that it needs to look like the normal surface of an unaffected coin.  I should have initially posted pictures of the edge of this Nickel in my opening post, my apologies.  Here are some pictures of the edge which I tried to rotate 90 degrees at a time. The edge looks like the shiny surface of a normal Jefferson and is actually reflecting the blue flannel shirt next to the coin if you can see this. This normal edge color was also one of the factors and reasons I believed this coin to be a possible candidate for an IA.  Thanks.

[Coinbuf]

Well the edge looks correct, I'm somewhat on the fence given the blotchy look to the color but in all honesty I have not seen very many improperly annealed coins so it may be much more common than I know.   I would guess that a true improperly annealed planchet would not change if given an acetone bath where a foreign substance on the surface would be removed, but don't take that advice without some confirmation as I have never done it.

[J P M]

Try some Goof Off on it I here it is a miracle solution. I hear tell it can make a coin real even if it isn't.

Edited November 1, 2021 by J P Mashoke

[Lem E]

I have a 59 Jeff labeled as improperly annealed by NGC but it is a black beauty and it is completely black all over. It actually has a bit of shine to it. It’s pretty cool looking. Sorry I don’t have any pics of it at the moment.

[GBrad]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:40 PM, Coinbuf said:

Well the edge looks correct, I'm somewhat on the fence given the blotchy look to the color but in all honesty I have not seen very many improperly annealed coins so it may be much more common than I know.   I would guess that a true improperly annealed planchet would not change if given an acetone bath where a foreign substance on the surface would be removed, but don't take that advice without some confirmation as I have never done it.

Same thought process here Coinbuf.  You must have read my mind.  I have been thinking about just going ahead and giving it a drink of acetone to see what happens.  I have used acetone on both Copper Lincolns and copper/nickel alloy Jeffersons and it has never done harm to either.  With that thinking..... based on the info Mike Diamond published from his discussion with a Mint Director concerning annealing, the pure copper within the coin's mixed alloy ingredients migrates to the surface due to mistakes made while in the oven and during the annealing process such as oxygen entering the annealing oven as @Oldhoopster pointed out earlier in this thread.  I'm not a chemist but I can understand how this would happen.  Mike Diamond (I believe it was him if I remember correctly) also said that improperly annealed planchets can take on a host of different colors and that they may or may not exhibit their "off color" on the entirety of the planchet's surfaces. I'm going to try @J P Mashoke's  suggestion first and if if doesn't work I'll try acetone.  Standby.  

[GBrad]

Did an acetone soak. It looks a little better just from removing a years worth of haze but it still has the same copper discoloration, in the same areas, as my original pics. Oh well, no need to spend anymore time on this one, not a game changer regardless, and if it was an IA it wouldn't be worth more than $20 bucks or so. But... I still just want to come across one.... I'll find a bonafide example sooner or later.  Thanks for all the comments.  

Edited November 2, 2021 by GBrad