Be Glad They're Bad 1 1

[RWB]

Most counterfeits from China and Colorado are readily identified as fakes by collectors of moderate experience. With ANA and other hobby "trusted organizations" sticking their heads in the sand and avoiding aggressive dealing with counterfeiters, we should all be glad that most of the trash is badly made and easy to identify.

Merely an opinion....

[GoldFinger1969]

I continue to think that AI and hi-def computers should be able to scan and analyze and be able to scan for fakes in mass volumes and relieve the burden on human graders.

[gmarguli]

On 9/22/2021 at 10:26 AM, RWB said:

we should all be glad that most of the trash is badly made and easy to identify.

Maybe that is what the counterfeiters want you to believe. They create tons of garbage so their expert pieces slip through. 

[Alex in PA.]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:13 PM, gmarguli said:

so their expert pieces slip through.

@gmarguli has given us all 'Food for Thought'.  No one ever proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Chinese were stupid.

[Revenant]

On 9/22/2021 at 2:13 PM, gmarguli said:

Maybe that is what the counterfeiters want you to believe. They create tons of garbage so their expert pieces slip through. 

I think it more likely that you have lower tier producers and upper tier producers. The upper tier producers probably do appreciate the cover and false sense of security from the low tier producers but I wouldn't be surprised if they have nothing to do with each other.

[Alex in PA.]

I'd also like to add that the counterfeiters are good at making slabs too.  

[VKurtB]

On 9/22/2021 at 2:19 PM, Alex in PA. said:

@gmarguli has given us all 'Food for Thought'.  No one ever proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Chinese were stupid.

Not stupid, just unbelievably evil. I try to avoid ALL Chinese products to the extent it is possible. Call it a “quest”.

Edited September 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[Alex in PA.]

On 9/22/2021 at 4:07 PM, VKurtB said:

I try to avoid ALL Chinese products

A bit hard to do these days.    

[Coinbuf]

And yet poor quality crudely made counterfeits continue to sell everyday putting real money into the pockets of those counterfeiters and those who profit from their wares.

[Mohawk]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:47 PM, Coinbuf said:

And yet poor quality crudely made counterfeits continue to sell everyday putting real money into the pockets of those counterfeiters and those who profit from their wares.

Yep.  And you can thank Etsy, Mercari and Alibaba for much of that.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:24 PM, Revenant said:

I think it more likely that you have lower tier producers and upper tier producers. The upper tier producers probably do appreciate the cover and false sense of security from the low tier producers but I wouldn't be surprised if they have nothing to do with each other.

You make a valid, often overlooked point. Depending on the source you consult, there are pronounced class distinctions, up to ten official dialects, sub-dialects and regional variations with Wenzhounese having the reputation of being the "least comprehensible dialect" for the over billion majority Mandarin speakers.

Not to denigrate the comments made by other members but, to me, the drug trade and the rise of the Narco-State responsible for the deaths of millions and the expenditures of billions of dollars over the past 50 years is more of a significant threat than collectors who fail to exercise due diligence.  Besides, it is the ready, able and willing consumer buying brand-name counterfeit handbags and clothing at cheap prices, trademark laws and sub-standard quality be damned, that guarantees investigations of numismatic counterfeits will remain on the back burner.  And what about the sudden profusion of all those 99-cent stores?  We have met the enemy and it turns out he is an ordinary American who cannot resist a bargain.

My opinion.

[VKurtB]

On 9/22/2021 at 5:11 PM, Alex in PA. said:

A bit hard to do these days.    

Yes it is. Some wise person once said that it is only the difficult things that are worth the effort.

[VKurtB]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

You make a valid, often overlooked point. Depending on the source you consult, there are pronounced class distinctions, up to ten official dialects, sub-dialects and regional variations with Wenzhounese having the reputation of being the "least comprehensible dialect" for the over billion majority Mandarin speakers.

Not to denigrate the comments made by other members but, to me, the drug trade and the rise of the Narco-State responsible for the deaths of millions and the expenditures of billions of dollars over the past 50 years is more of a significant threat than collectors who fail to exercise due diligence.  Besides, it is the ready, able and willing consumer buying brand-name counterfeit handbags and clothing at cheap prices, trademark laws and sub-standard quality be damned, that guarantees investigations of numismatic counterfeits will remain on the back burner.  And what about the sudden profusion of all those 99-cent stores?  We have met the enemy and it turns out he is an ordinary American who cannot resist a bargain.

My opinion.

Why do even the Secret Service not know about or even much CARE about counterfeiting? Do you think maybe stripping them out of the Treasury Department where they belong and putting them in Homeland Security might explain some of it? Yeahhhhhh.

[RWB]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:47 PM, Coinbuf said:

And yet poor quality crudely made counterfeits continue to sell everyday putting real money into the pockets of those counterfeiters and those who profit from their wares.

True --- but the people making the most money are Greedy Americans who buy from the counterfeiters, then resell to the clueless. If there were no market, the counterfeiters would go back to making toothpaste out of plaster of Paris.

[Chinese Communist Capitalism is entirely consistent with ancient government and social philosophy. Strong government roles, with limited interference with free trade, so long as the government gets a cut and has final control. You are seeing that in operation now as the Communist Party cracks down of excess speculation, but does little to protect its citizens from consumer fraud and misrepresentation. No drug - not even aspirin - can be trusted. The better-off buy from import sources, never Chinese.]

Edited September 23, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/22/2021 at 6:11 PM, Alex in PA. said:

A bit hard to do these days.    

Based on your service record, I assume you are marginally older than me. I trust your judgment, your reliance on emoji -- and even the no-holds-barred dressing down you gave me for defending the Nevada guy. In my eyes, you can do no wrong. My many detractors were not content with simply ignoring me.  They fled the premises, en masse. I have checked out the Water Cooler and the surgically precise posts ATS and marveled at their total intoleration for deviation from the topic at hand.  Regardless, what you may feel, I appreciate all your comments -- and choice of friends and associates.  Lately, I have been experiencing operating difficulties. My Notification notices are ignored; my comments are routinely delayed if they are published at all, and that's okay with me. For the most part I am simply sounding off. I am amused by people who seem to take me seriously.

***

I am not overly concerned with Chinese-made U.S. knock-offs. I collect 🐓 but I am not a fan of the French. They occupied Indo-China, exiled Dreyfuss, had the nerve to demand -- and get! millions in reparations from Haiti and I am glad they got their comeuppance at Dien Bien Phu in 1954.  NGC has honored me with a membership; PCGS has honored me with two plaques (though I privately concede the 🐓 Set ranked at #2 is better: consistent, well-organized and photographed well.) The quote I want to remember you best for, particularly for someone with an extraordinarily long memory is a modest one:  "I would truly like to help but I don't know anything at all about pennies." @Alex in PA. circa Nov. 13, 2018. That's as honest as honest can get.

[Cat Bath]

On 9/22/2021 at 11:03 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

PCGS has honored me with two plaques (though I privately concede the 🐓 Set ranked at #2 is better: consistent, well-organized and photographed well.) 

Kirk is a distant 2nd in my opinion but I'd like to be able to admire your entire set in TrueView.

[Henri Charriere]

@Cat Bath  This is a most unusual request!  Really?  Why?  What would you expect to find?  (In my mind, I'm saying, "You've seen one Rooster, you've seen 'em all.")

But there are practical considerations, as well:

1.  I an officially retired as of Constitution Day, 2021. No, not from my imaginary "profession" of Master Chiffonier (which @RWB with a most sensitive schnozzola accurately revealed to be nothing more than a fancy term for a common "rag picker.") But, from the hobby: coin collecting.

2.  The first order of business would be re-activating my long dormant membership in a concern which appears to direct the bulk of its work, probably 99.44%, on U.S. coins. That's $249, for the privilege of paying additional fees to have photos I was never impressed with to begin with, taken.  (Now if @Buffalo Head were involved, he'd win, hands-down. I am a big fan of his photographic skills.)

3.  True-View, last I was aware, cost $5 each and it was my understanding they've been superseded in favor of something finer.  Would these True-Views be of sufficient quality to inspire  @VKurtB to abandon his long-standing, iron-clad policy to base a buy on a photo alone?  I doubt it.

4.  It is my understanding, possibly dead-wrong, that any picture-taking would require a coin be posed in its raw state, a polite way of saying disrobed or de-encapsulated.  If that were to occur -- and I have not ruled it out -- the coin would then have to be re-encapsulated. Assuming I still retain a vestige of common sense, this would mean favoring the newer security-chip embedded Near Field Technology holders. As a practical matter, I, me, a collector,  born under the sign of Virgo would be forced to live with a hybrid set consisting of older and newer, cutting-edge holders for no reason other than satisfying the curiosity of a collector. (We are insatiably critical and annoyingly particular.) No way I am going to upgrade the others in order to conform to symmetry (unless the Great Zadok insists, which I seriously doubt.)

5.  During the recent national elections (discussion of which is prohibited 🚫 on this Forum) I believe I broadly hinted that the older candidates -- they're ALL old irrespective of party -- should graciously step aside and allow the younger whippersnappers have a shot at the crown. My intention was to move my Set Registry to NGC but suddenly seemingly out of nowhere, a contender I shall politely refer to as #3, who made his intentions abundantly clear with a sizeable financial commitment (only a Rooster collector could truly appreciate) made his debut and I knew jeopardizing his investment would be inconsiderate and in poor taste. (An honorary arbiter like @Hoghead515 would never stoop so low.)

Right now, it's those Roosters recently graded MS-68, the inevitability of which @RWB correctly predicted with continuing submissions, is the only thing that keep me up at nite:  whose got em? where are they? what's it gonna cost to make one (or both) mine.

Sorry, @Cat Bath.

[numisport]

If there is [are] counterfeiters in Colorado they should be easy to confront. Unless of course the deep state part of the Secret Service is in charge.

[ldhair]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:25 AM, numisport said:

If there is [are] counterfeiters in Colorado they should be easy to confront. Unless of course the deep state part of the Secret Service is in charge.

They found a legal way around the laws and the ANA did not care what it would do to the hobby. Collectors started buying them and beat the hell out of anyone that said it was wrong.

It's too late to stop it and it gave China an open ticket to do anything they wish. Most that agree with me gave up and now say nothing because they want nothing to do with the hate they received for having an opinion from those that collect them. I'm an ANA member but have little respect for the way they handled this. 

[RWB]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:00 PM, ldhair said:

They found a legal way around the laws

...not quite. The law is clear and applies equally to all counterfeits, however they are produced. No one has legally challenged the criminals largely because of the expense of litigation and "protection" from customers and ANA, who bury their heads in the sand. Compared to importers of fake consumer products, airplane parts, drugs, etc. the fleecing of a few $100,000 from coin collectors is not worth the cost. The US Mint has a similar approach even though it is their coins that are faked.

Edited September 26, 2021 by RWB

[Revenant]

On 9/23/2021 at 6:27 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It is my understanding, possibly dead-wrong, that any picture-taking would require a coin be posed in its raw state, a polite way of saying disrobed or de-encapsulated.  If that were to occur -- and I have not ruled it out -- the coin would then have to be re-encapsulated.

Required? I don't know. There are some slabs that are just so scratched and beat to hell. Personally, I think I did really good with my 10G set when they came back home, all 8 in pristine, new, unmarked, scratch-resistant holders. But, even then I have to deal with the prongs / supports blocking out part of the rim, so the images might fail your test on that basis.

Set Details | NGC Registry | NGC (ngccoin.com)

 

[RWB]

Most coin photos, except those made by NGC and PCGS are taken before the coin is stuck in plastic. The quality is much better and lighting is simpler to control. Slabs are ALWAYS an impediment.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:25 PM, numisport said:

If there is [are] counterfeiters in Colorado they should be easy to confront. Unless of course the deep state part of the Secret Service is in charge.

I don't know the first thing about any "deep state part" of the U.S.S.S., but I would be willing to go so far as to say its mission has changed after it became a part of the Department of Homeland Security. [For members who are sticklers for irrefutable scientific proof, I refer you their association of retired S.S. agents, and leave it at that.]